Flush Draws

I did a search, and was extremely surprised to find nothing on this.

Lately I've been having a HUGE problem with people putting all their money on a flush draw against me.

just as an example (dont have the real hand off hand, so ill just type what i can remember), this just happened 10 or so minutes ago in a $5.50 18 man SnG on Full Tilt Poker.

I'm in BB, and i get dealt QQ. it comes around to me, and someone had raised the minimum, and then someone else had reraised the minimum, putting it at near 400 (im sitting with a little over 3k in chips -- 7 players left, blinds in the 150 area). So when it gets around to me, i raise it to 910. the guy that reraised called.

flop comes 4h Tx Kh -- im first to act, and im sitting with a little over 2k left, so i bet 1.4k, he reraises all in, barely missing a beat. i call because for 1. i have about 600-800 left in chips, and i dont think he hit the flop.

he flips over A9h , turn is an A, river is not a Q. so im out.

Is there something i did wrong here? I think i played it fine, maybe a little gutsy with the K on board, but is there something i could have done to prevent him from putting in all his chips with a flush draw? (besides packet his internet =P )

i think to decide, gotta know more info. like how close were you to being in the money etc. odds were in your favor to win, but not by that much. given the king on the flop, might have been worth not betting so aggressive to beign with?

4 places get paid. i bet so aggressive because i had put him on JJ, so i went with my instinct, and i was partially right in that i had him beat, but i just put him on the wrong cards.

Nothing you really can do about a donkey, it has happened to me on several occasions where a player will think that a flush draw is the nuts and bet all they have on it.
They have no understanding on poker maths.

Seven players remaining, it's already a massive pot. He has a flush draw plus the overcard, so 12 outs with two cards remaining (about 45% to win if puts you on a pair). Although you don't say, it sounds like he has you covered, so he'll still be in if it misses.

So he's not doing anything wrong - just deciding that this was his moment to gamble for the money. And to answer your original question, you can't stop him from doing that.

i think that when you have to make a play for a pot, you just gamble and hope. sometimes it's a good bet and sometimes not. but at some point in a tournament, you gotta make a play and hope for some luck. at least that's my philosophy. perhaps thats why i always lose.

he did have me covered, but not by much at all. maybe 500-600. i think my main problem with the entire hand is that he only had A9s, not that he caught the flush, but that he called a huge preflop RERAISE with A9s and then caught it.

i think in internet poker, a lot of people think A9 is a very good starting hand, so it woudlnt surprise me that he called a huge raise. (again, this is prolly why i always lose)

My only problem with is betting 2/3 of your chips. Either get em all in or make a bet which makes it appear you can fold (decide 1st if you will call an all-in or not). Not a big deal here, you're obviously commited, but why not just push?

Goldog

I agree. It has nothing to do with the flushdraw itself, and most likely would not have made a difference in this hand, but don't leave yourself with 700 chips in a pot that's going to be over 4000.

Basically, don't leave yourself in the "dead zone." I don't know if you're familiar with the M-value, but if you have any say in it, don't let it sink below 5. If a call will push you below that, you're usually better off pushing all-in.

(Then again, what do I know about tournaments.)

You also need to look at this from villains perspective. If he had your range including the pair of Kings and under pairs they had proper odds to make the call.

Heres why:

3 outs for the higher pair A.
9 outs for the flush.
--------------------------
12 total outs

12 outs with two cards to come equals ~48% to win the hand.

Add in the % of the time that this flop missed you, and you are just continuation betting, villains play is probably profitable.

I don't condone getting all your chips in the middle on a draw. Depending on his read of the situation it might have been the right play.

If I calculated the pot correctly, he had to call ~500 when the pot was ~1,700, so he was getting over 3:1 on the money and he had position on you. This is not a bad call (even though the original min-raise was terrible).

The flop leaves him with one overcard and a flush draw. He sees you betting a substantial amount, possibly trying to buy the pot and pushes his 12-outer.

What's important to understand here: this is an online tournament, the blinds move quickly, the pot is big and he has a good chance of winning it.

Also, he's spending ~2,000 to possibly win ~3,700. Considering that he has about a 45% chance of winning it's not that bad a bad move. After all, accumulating a big stack is valuable in every tournament.

The way you describe this, there is nothing that could have been done. Unfortunately you're right that people put their chips in on flush draws often doing it the wrong way and getting lucky. Although what is being said here is correct, there is no sense in leaving only 600-800 behind when the pot is 4k, that is not why you lost. You're opponent reraised knowing you had no FE and that is what I intend when I say players shove with their draws the wrong way.

The whole concept of shoving on a draw is based on having a chance to take down the pot right there. Had you checked rather than betting 1.4k then his all-in bet makes more sense (I still wouldn't do it but that doesn't make it incorrect), for the chance of forcing you to fold since you have FE. If worse comes to worse and you call he still has outs. But reraising all-in knowing you're committed to the pot and knowing he's behind is such a poor play that there are no words for it, even worse than calling your 910 PF reraise with A9s. I can tell you though that you won't lose this every time, I know it causes trouble and gets you knocked out of tournies every now and then, I experience that myself, but the times you end up taking their stacks will be more, trust me on that. It can be frustrating when you happen to be on the wrong end 3/4 times in a row (been there), but eventually you'll end up ahead.

Read my signature, it's all explained there.

He reraised this to 910 PF, and villain is calling it with A9s. Since that was the 3rd raise before the flop, you can't dismiss his flop bet as a simple c-bet, there is no way you can be ahead here, and you really can't figure you're A to be 3 sure outs.

Knowing there is no FE, the shove here is insane, just a silly play that often players do hoping to catch. I'm not saying your numbers are off the mark Tosborn, but I'm quite sure villain never even attempted to put him on a range or thought his A could be good, honestly there is no reason to think that after a 910 reraise from the BB. He just shoved hoping to catch and he did.

I'm sorry, searched my OFFICIAL DICTIONARY OF POKER, and found nothing that FE could stand for.

Please explain FE

FE = Fold Equity

I absolutely agree with you that villain probably never put any thought to Hero's holdings here. Also, I'm not saying that I entirely agree with villain's play. I only wanted to point out that with a ~48% chance of winning this hand and minimum of 5% of the time that Hero is bluffing this could (you can call it a stretch) be a profitable play by villain.

What I was getting at is the fact that there are times in poker when both hero and villain could be making a profitable and only one can win the hand. (read: DON"T BE RESULTS ORIENTED)

The Fundamental Thoerom of Poker states that you profit when opponents play a hand differently than they would have had they seen your cards (and that the opposite is also true). Considering this, the true mistake of villain here is calling PF with A9 suited. When the flop came, his decision was debatable, but understandable since he had plenty of outs and a good chance to draw out on you.

The shove was silly, yes, since there were no fold equity whatsoever, but being a winner 48% of the time (and maybe more if here had a lower pair, such as 88) it still is semi-right (not profitable in any way tough, since you still put your money in most likely as an underdog against a made hand in a spot where it isn't necessary).


So keep your chin up, 52% of the time, you'll come out a winner in this situation, and any edge is a good edge in poker.

Am Just Intrested, How Long Had You Been On The Table With The Villian, Had He Made Any Similar Flush Draw Moves Before?

on fulltilt there are alot of bad beats. for some reason i have noticed it more there than any other site. you did nothing wrong but people think is they have the nut flush draw they willllllll allllwwayyysss hit it so they move all in. those are bad players. remember that there are alot of odnekys comparedto good players who dont know any drawing hands they just want to play luck.

It wasn't a bad beat. The edge was very small. (BTW, its 48% to improve the villian's hand, but only 45% to win, since an Ace could then be beaten by a straight or a third queen or other oddities).

The only thing the villian really did wrong was call the reraise pre-flop. Having done that, the flop looks good to him. With pot as big as it was, it was a very resonable move in on his part post-flop.

Sit down with a odds calculator like this one: Poker Player - Texas Hold-em Odds Calculator. It will help you realize that alot of those so-called bad beats a) look alot worse then they really are and b) are actually justified by the odds vs pot-odds and that's just the way it works in poker.

FINALLY I DID IT!!! I DIDNT GET OUT DRAWN!!!!

I had JJ, raised nearly 6x bb (blinds 100, i bet 600), 1 caller, flop was 4h 6h Qc

he checked, i bet 800, he raised me to about 2/3 of my stack, i reraised all in, he calls with A3h turn and river not aces or hearts. i told him to go to hell.

Very mature of you.

i had to release my excitement some kind of way. i finally didnt get out drawn. he was a donk with A3h. *shrug*

Fair enough I suppose, it can be annoying getting out drawn often, especially when it's by bad play.

I agree with the post flop play being right. His stack size basicaly says he has to make a play or fold. With the pot odds and the slight chance you would fold (This being internet) he had no choice but to make the move. He was going to see the river regardless and it was going to cost him all his chips on the turn. so he might as well make a move. His call preflop says he has anything from AA to AK suited. His raise on the flop says he has a hand or is drawing to the nut and has enough outs to make the call.

PokerStars: Putting someone on a specific hand preflop is rediculous. What made you think JJ? Try figuring a range of hands instead.

It wasn't a bad beat, it was almost a coin flip. He had the pot odds in his favor.

Unfortunately it sounds like you made the correct read, but they also made what may be the correct play at that stage. With so much inthe pot, it was worth it for the call on their part with one over card AND the nut flush draw. Fortunately for you, you were still about a 70/30 favorite there, so keep playing well and it will pay off in the end.

If I know they are on a flush draw and have them beat at that time, I will push at them. Especially if I have a much larger stack. Most of the time they will miss it, then later on when I do the same thing to other people at the table, they think about it, and usually decide its not worth the risking the same fate as the other person did.

I also push on the turn even if I hav a smaller/same stack size if I beleive they could be on a flush draw and the second of thier suit hits then or if I have not already pushed and a blank comes on the turn.

This is in SNG's of course, and I tend to push alot in them anyway when I am sure I am ahead. It helps my stack size grow alot while knocking the idiots out early on so the blinds are still really cheap with 4 people left. I get burned every now and then, but the times I dont more than makes up for it since I am usually in a very good position to get first playing that way which makes up for the few times I do get knocked out early in them when someone gets lucky. I also prefer to push if I know I am going to wind up beign all in, to make the ohter person tink about it, rather than reacting to them.

GO TO HELL, YOU BAD PLAYER WHO JUST GAVE ME CHIPS!!!~!!!1!

...

Anyways, reraise more preflop in the first hand. Tacking on 500 to a 400 reraise isn't going to scare anyone out of the pot, and you're not getting proper value from your very strong hand.

Pop it up to like 1200, then stick the rest of your stack in on the flop unless it's, say, AK2.

People at that level would bet their life on a flush draw if they could. Nothing you can do about that except identify who raises with flush draws, and who calls down, then play accordingly.

First off, I hate the A9 call.. and secondly, not much you could really do. WHen there is a lot of strength shown preflop, I tend to flat call and not re-raise it, just to take a peek and the flop and play cautious if I see an A or K on flop. If I don't, i'll fire.

New to this site, some of the replies here are incorrect, my guess is they are not that great at poker. You did make several mistakes there. Reraising 400 to 910 from BB is wrong. You aren't raising enough to make it definitive, thereby wasting a hand as good as QQ. Such a raise is just value-betting, and you shouldn't value-bet from BB against an opponent who's shown strength. Your read of JJ he had was wrong, but who cares if he's a donkey with A9? You can't control what other players do but you can play the right way and minimize losses while maximizing gains.

The right thing to do on his 410 reraise is to either reraise to a definitive amount(say 1400) or go all-in if you think you had him beat. You said yourself that you thought you had him beat.. so since he has position on you, why would you want to play the flop against an opponent if you had him beat? Going all-in, if he called at all, he's making a mistake unless he had AA or KK. He didn't. But MOST MOST LIKELY, going all in would've made him fold.

If you didn't like the risk, then raise to 1400 or so. You're telling him basically "you want to play with me, be prepared to lose it all", and he would've folded with A9. Then on the flop unless it's very dangerous like AK9, go all in. If it's dangerous, either slowplay and check, or slowplay then bet out a very small amount. If you did that, he would have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what you got, and his reaction would tell you what he has. He calls, he has nothing. He reraises small, he's scared of you, he goes all in, you fold. If he doesn't go all in, then you go all in.

Your raise to 910 indicated you weren't that strong. Then on the flop you made the BIGGEST MISTAKE OF ALL. You didn't go ALL IN but bet just enough to commit to all-in. He took this as "You are weak, you are bluffing, I'm gonna go all in", and he did. Sure, he outdrew you, but you made him think that you missed the flop. That's what you want if you had AA, not QQ. He called reraise preflop so he would've had an A most likely(your read was not good), and your bet on flop made him go all in.

He may or may not be a donkey, but you made 3 crucial errors in one hand. Think about my suggestion, 98 out of 100 opponents don't ever win against me holding QQ for a reason.. I can't remember ever having someone outdraw me in your described situation because I simply don't play in a way to let them do that.

once again, i get chased down by a flush draw, only this time he didnt get the flush draw, he simply got a higher pair, lmao.

i have A9o in cutoff. me and the small blind only in the hand. we both have about the same stacks, between $4-5 on the .5/.10 tables on FT. anyway, flop comes 9s 4d 4s, he leads out with a 10c bet, so i just call, in case he does have the 4. turn is 8c. he bets 10c again, so i know he doesnt have the 4, so i raised to $1, he calls. Jc on the river, he has JQs.

did i play this completely wrong? i, just dont know what im doing wrong to have this happen so often. i know what i did wrong in the 1st hand of the thread, but this i have no idea what i did wrong.

Put yourself into his position. The first bet is a feeler bet, testing if you have hit. Maybe you'll fold. After your turn raise, he has the flush draw (9 outs), the inside straight draw (3 more) and two overcards (plus 6). That's 18 outs assuming you don't have a 4, 12 if you do. Your bet doesn't give him pot odds to call unless he thinks a) that you're blufing or b) that you'll pay him off with more bets if he hits.

So the questions are, do always bet the flop? Does he have reason to believe that you are just trying to push him off the hand? Have you been making the calls with flush or straights on the board? Will you call a big river bet? What does he know about you?

Do you think, if you had raised his 10c that he would only come back at you with a 4? If so, then a 30c raise there might be enlightening. What do you know about him?

However, you also shouldn't be all that upset that one of his 18 outs hit. You seem fixated on the flush part of the draw.

it just seems like its always happening to me, and im trying to figure out what i can do to stop it from happenining. so thats why im posting them here. this is the absolute biggest flaw in my game in my opinion.

other than this little nick in my game, i think i have pretty decent game, i make fair enough reads, im learning the math part. i think i have or am learning all the right tools, i just need to incorporate them into my game.

One of the first things I note about someone, is will the play any two suited cards. If they will, I note them as a flush chaser. You WONT push these people off from chasing. If someone has played 10/3s or some other similar junk, try to make them pay when they miss thier draws, but dont risk your stack against them as they will get lucky sometimes.

How I usually deal with them is to make a good size bet on the flop. If the turn is a blank for them, I then double the bet, if they river is a blank I then 4x the bet. This how I have best been able to deal with them, and get them to fold at the turn.