It seems to me like theres no real thread for people learning the art of the cash game to post their goals, graphs, simple questions and since the SNG thread seems to be doing pretty well I thought we could see how a cash game one gos aswell.

So anyway in January I started playing cash games and although I was already rolled for 5nl I thought I might just try 2nl for a while so I can get the hang of it. It all went pretty well...



Midway through the month I decided to try this great new interesting thing called RUSH poker. Twice... This kind of evened the month out for me...




So Feb goals...

Start playing 5nl
Get in heaps of hands - 15k+
Get used to multitabling 6 tables
Profit


I have just found out that im actually getting rakeback for full tilt aswell when I didnt think I was so thats a major bonus!

Good to see this thread back. I do hope Jurn8 will drop by to call everyone mofos and officially open it.

Nice graph btw and shouldn't one of your goals be to stay off crack (Rush) this month?

Haha yeah I think I may stay away from it for a while, at least until im rolled for and playing 10nl....

[IMG]http://[/IMG]

man i hope the graph will be been, this is over 100k hands at microstakes, and as i will play more i will post here, tell everyone how i am doing.

EDIT: alright happy to see the graph works, goals for this month: get silver star :P, win at least 150$, play more 5NL, less 2NL.

Nice graph mate, is that all at 2NL? Impressive that you stuck at it that long...


Loving this...

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.05(BB) Replayer
SB ($5.88)
BB ($4.93)
UTG ($7.60)
Hero ($5.28)
UTG+2 ($3.31)
MP1 ($6.78)
MP2 ($3.70)
CO ($1.20)
BTN ($5.20)

Dealt to Hero Q♠ Q♦

fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to $0.55, Hero calls $0.40

FLOP ($1.12) Q♥ 9♣ Q♣

BB bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75

TURN ($2.62) Q♥ 9♣ Q♣ T♦

BB bets $1.05, Hero calls $1.05

RIVER ($4.72) Q♥ 9♣ Q♣ T♦ 7♦

BB bets $2.58 (AI), Hero calls $2.58

BB shows K♣ K♠
(Pre 82%, Flop 0.2%, Turn 0.0%)

Hero shows Q♠ Q♦
(Pre 18%, Flop 99.8%, Turn 100.0%)

Hero wins $9.23

Cool the micro's thread is back, posting to subscribe really, gonna start up the blog again today i think so will be back later to do some shameless blog pimpage

Originally Posted by stubzy11

Nice graph mate, is that all at 2NL? Impressive that you stuck at it that long...


Loving this...

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.05(BB) Replayer
SB ($5.88)
BB ($4.93)
UTG ($7.60)
Hero ($5.28)
UTG+2 ($3.31)
MP1 ($6.78)
MP2 ($3.70)
CO ($1.20)
BTN ($5.20)

Dealt to Hero Q♠ Q♦

fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to $0.55, Hero calls $0.40

What was your plan post flop if you didn't spike your Queen(s)?

Tks for starting this up again Stubzy, I've missed this thread, it was always my first stop in the forum when it was going last year!

Like orange, posting to subscribe...

Any interest in talking about HUD displays?

I bought HEM a couple of months ago and am still getting used to the UI after using PT3 for a year - just started changing the HUD from the default setup. I'm trying to configure the HUD to quickly allow me to see only the stats for behaviors I'm most likely to be able to exploit in the games I play, and to organize the popups effectively to get more detail when I need it.

atm, my HUD is:

Name, Hands
VPIP/PFR/3bet/F3bet
Agg Factor/Agg Pct/Steal/Fold BB to Steal
Flop Cbet/Turn Cbet/Fold to Fop CB/Fold to Turn CB

The rationales are obv that I see 3bets and stealing as huge opportunities, that I want to know how strong a flop cbet is from Villain, and that I want to know how much Villain likes to float. I've got both Agg Factor and Agg Pct displayed atm, haven't decided if I need both (or either) yet.

I used to (in PT3) show a lot more stats, including WTSD, donk bet, flop c/r, and several others, but am trying for a cleaner "quick" look atm.

If you have suggestions/feedback, I'd love to have it. I'm mostly playing 50nl atm fwiw.

Sean Pilgrim put up his HUD here requesting feedback http://www.cardschat.com/f13/other-hem-users-169764/. ChuckTs has a great thread on 6max HUD stats here http://www.cardschat.com/f11/6-max-h...-how-i-140070/.

good to see this thread back up and running...gonna do some 2NL on fulltilt with my remaining 40 bucks and 5NL on Pokerstars

Originally Posted by slycbnew

Any interest in talking about HUD displays?

Good subject.

My HUD looks like this

VPIP/PFR/AF/Ag%/hands
Steal/Fold to Steal/3bet/Fold to 3bet
Cbet/Fold to Cbet/WTSD/Limp-call

pretty standard layout except for Limp-Call. I don't see a lot of people that use it, but I find it invaluable for picking out guys I should isolate wider/narrower. High limp-call + High Fold to Cbet = profits.

I lurkscribe to this thread.

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

What was your plan post flop if you didn't spike your Queen(s)?

TBH I dont think I thought about it before I called. I guess this is why they say calling 3-bets is generally a -ev play right? If the flop comes with any A,K I think I would fold to a c-bet, all lower cards and I would have shoved over top. Obviously this time I would have seen his kings and kicked myself.

Would you suggest 4-betting the queens? Then would you call a shove over the top of that? I know you see some horrible shoves at these levels but I think most of the time anyone that shoves over this will have AK, AA, KK so our queens are well behind...

Originally Posted by stubzy11

TBH I dont think I thought about it before I called. I guess this is why they say calling 3-bets is generally a -ev play right? If the flop comes with any A,K I think I would fold to a c-bet, all lower cards and I would have shoved over top. Obviously this time I would have seen his kings and kicked myself.

Would you suggest 4-betting the queens? Then would you call a shove over the top of that? I know you see some horrible shoves at these levels but I think most of the time anyone that shoves over this will have AK, AA, KK so our queens are well behind...

Calling a 3bet and CRAI on safe boards is a pretty standard play with Q's. Unless villain is terribad, 4-betting will usually fold out most hands you beat. We once did some EV calcs on this exact situation and in most cases, calling and CRAI was the better play. Since this is 5NL , I'd just 4-bet shove and expect to get called by a lot of mid PP's and AX.

I am just in the middle of playing around with a new HUD config atm but here is what I have been playing with so far. Never got around to colouring the last line so thats just white. Is there really any need to have the name up? As long as you know which HUD box corresponds to which position on the table I dont really see a need for it

Originally Posted by stubzy11

TBH I dont think I thought about it before I called. I guess this is why they say calling 3-bets is generally a -ev play right? If the flop comes with any A,K I think I would fold to a c-bet, all lower cards and I would have shoved over top. Obviously this time I would have seen his kings and kicked myself.

Would you suggest 4-betting the queens? Then would you call a shove over the top of that? I know you see some horrible shoves at these levels but I think most of the time anyone that shoves over this will have AK, AA, KK so our queens are well behind...

Depends on the villain. His 3bet was on the large side although not extremely. You don't give any stats for him but I think 4betting /flatting/folding could all be options depending on the villain. I'm never 4betting QQ with the intention of folding if he shoves. Either I don't 4bet or I call the shove.

About the only think you can't really do profitably here is set mine, which is why I asked about your plan for a non Q containing flop.

Also I used the exact same stats except I actually break out fold BB to steal and fold SB to steal, everything else it the same just in a different order.

Originally Posted by dsvw56

pretty standard layout except for Limp-Call. I don't see a lot of people that use it, but I find it invaluable for picking out guys I should isolate wider/narrower. High limp-call + High Fold to Cbet = profits.

I've never used limp-call simply cuz I raise limpers regardless of their fold to cbet under the assumption that they're fish, but that means I'm not optimizing it - I'll play w it.

High l/c + high fold to cbet - we're isolating w a really super wide range, close to atc on the btn, if nobody in the blinds/behind us is likely to mess w us.

High l/c + low fold to cbet (and sometimes a high donk bet % or high check/raise %) - how much should we be narrowing our range? Roughly our CO opening range? Narrower?

I just hate to let fish off the hook when I'm in position...

Originally Posted by slycbnew

I've never used limp-call simply cuz I raise limpers regardless of their fold to cbet under the assumption that they're fish, but that means I'm not optimizing it - I'll play w it.

High l/c + high fold to cbet - we're isolating w a really super wide range, close to atc on the btn, if nobody in the blinds/behind us is likely to mess w us.

High l/c + low fold to cbet (and sometimes a high donk bet % or high check/raise %) - how much should we be narrowing our range? Roughly our CO opening range? Narrower?

I just hate to let fish off the hook when I'm in position...

Well, obviously, it depends. And it may not be widening/narrowing your range as much as it is just shifting your range towards different types of hands. In your second example, you're going to want to weight your range towards more top pair type hand, stuff like K6/Q7 or whatever is on the bottom edge of your A/K/Q/J isolating range. But you may not necessarily narrow your range at all.

And I find it more useful when playing from the blinds and for finding spots to widen my iso range rather than narrow it. There's probably not a ton of spots where you're isolating too wide especially if you're IP.

At FR HEM's HUD is hard to use when I multitable (ie. the table is small, too many stats) so I use a few less than you, sly.

One I do use that not everyone uses is EP raise. In conjunction with PFR and steal percentage I'm trying to narrow the range given the position of the raise; ie. if his steal is high and EP is low then the late range is really wide, but if PFR is the same as EP then he's not positionally aware and his EP raise could mean KJo. I dunno; maybe just steal with PFR would give this too?

With the HUDs stuff, my current set up (with PT3) is:

Name/Hands/Steal Attempt/Total AFq
VP$IP/PFR/Pre-flop3bet%/Foldto3bet%/Foldtocbet
Cbet Flop/Cbet Turn/Cbet River

Mostly it's set up to show any time someone is betting/raising/floating light or folding too easily. The cbet %'s I mostly don't use, only against the occasional TAGfish.

I'm considering getting rid of most of it and changing it to:
Name/Hands
3bet%/Foldto3bet%
4bet%/Foldto4bet%

Just on the principle of not becoming dependent on a HUD for information I should know, and not relying on the vague information the the HUD provides.
Fold to 3bets/4bets is kind of hard to keep track of without a lot of history though (especially if they're folding to someone else's 3bet while I'm watching another table), so those stats will definately hang around for a while.

Ouch. $51 of that is 2NL 6 max

Things just arent going my way on recently.

Originally Posted by marknz88

Ouch. $51 of that is 2NL 6 max

Things just arent going my way on recently.

You've got to learn to stop putting your money in with the best hand, don't you know you're not supposed to do that in poker?

Originally Posted by marknz88

Ouch. $51 of that is 2NL 6 max

Things just arent going my way on recently.

Are you just running bad? What does your +/- EV graph look like?

Originally Posted by thepokerkid123

You've got to learn to stop putting your money in with the best hand, don't you know you're not supposed to do that in poker?

Oh now you tell me !

Originally Posted by aseablom

Are you just running bad? What does your +/- EV graph look like?

Pokertableratings Hot/Not at 2NL 6 max only is 31/100

Initially I kept stacking off with TP/TK or 2 pair far too much. From about 9k hands onwards I tried to only get it in minimum with sets...unfortunately I would run into straights/flush a good portion of the time.

I think I'm a little to keen to get my money in at times, but I find it hard to take a lot of the players seriously as I feel they just try to push me off my hand when I Cbet the flop to take it down there and then and chase their draws.

I have a feeling you are calling too frequently, Mark. If so, you can become more aggressive by finding places to raise or fold.

Originally Posted by slycbnew

atm, my HUD is:

Name, Hands
VPIP/PFR/3bet/F3bet
Agg Factor/Agg Pct/Steal/Fold BB to Steal
Flop Cbet/Turn Cbet/Fold to Fop CB/Fold to Turn CB

I'm stealing this... and implementing it as soon as I can figure out how. Which will require more coffee...

I'm also going to check out the threads you linked.

Posting this will help me remember.

Carry on.

My overall 2NL 6max VIPI is 18 and PFR 11...so I guess you could say I am calling to much pre-flop at least.

At these levels though I like to setmine OOP. If IP I will usually raise my PP 77+...I feel that if I raise all of them im spewing more chips than needed if I can see it cheaply?

Also any flops/rivers/turns that Im not way ahead, but have semi decent odds/implied I'll call at least one street to see if I improve? Should I just be folding anything that misses the flop (i.e I have AdTd, but flop is only 1 diamond while I currently have TP?)

I have toned down my aggression recently as I was just bleeding chips every time I didn't hit my hand and there are too many calling stations who call pot sized bets to make it +ve im finding...(yes I know this should make it ++++++ve but im not hitting my hands and when I do get a big hand, nobodies coming for the ride )

damn thats a pretty steady raise. nice. yea my rush poker game was very inconsistent because of the aggressive gameplay. took my money over to pokerstars for a little bit to build a roll

Originally Posted by marknz88

My overall 2NL 6max VIPI is 18 and PFR 11...so I guess you could say I am calling to much pre-flop at least.

Calling too much when you should be raising, yeah.

At these levels though I like to setmine OOP. If IP I will usually raise my PP 77+...I feel that if I raise all of them im spewing more chips than needed if I can see it cheaply?

Calling isn't cheaper. Try not calling any more than a standard raise (not 3bet) OOP with a pair. In position calling with pocket pairs isn't bad, sometimes 3betting is better but I think you can get by without it for now.
When you raise you get a chance to pick up the pot pre-flop and then you get a good chance at taking the pot down on the flop.
Let's say you call with 55, what flop other than one that gives you a set, is going to allow you to win the pot?

Do yourself a favour and just never (ever) call OOP, with anything except small pocket pairs purely for set mining when it's really cheap. Raise or fold. Sometimes calling is better, but very rarely.

Also any flops/rivers/turns that Im not way ahead, but have semi decent odds/implied I'll call at least one street to see if I improve? Should I just be folding anything that misses the flop (i.e I have AdTd, but flop is only 1 diamond while I currently have TP?)

Calling with draws is ok as long as you don't get crazy with implied odds, it's actually folding draws when you've got odds to chase that is a leak.
If you flop top pair, it should take a lot of heat before you fold. Particularly if you're against a calling station or if it's a 3bet pot, you should pretty much be playing for stacks most of the time if you're anywhere near 100bb deep or less.

I have toned down my aggression recently as I was just bleeding chips every time I didn't hit my hand and there are too many calling stations who call pot sized bets to make it +ve im finding...(yes I know this should make it ++++++ve but im not hitting my hands and when I do get a big hand, nobodies coming for the ride )
Honestly, going through 25 buy ins in like 12k hands, it's not all bad luck. You may be on a downswing, in fact you probably are but losing that much so quickly is a really good indication that you've got some leaks in your game.

Responses in bold.

Thanks for those responses pokerkid.

One of the reasons why the "downswing" is so big is that I love to get it in with 2 pair (-$24) or trips (33% win rate).So for the last 2k hands I've held off getting the money in unless I have the nuts/near nuts to preserve my BR from going to zilch.

My biggest leak initially was getting in too often with TPTK (-$75) and I've been trying to plug this as much as I can.

I'm going to try and play a raise/fold only game and see how the next few thousand hands go.

One area I may have trouble with is bet sizing at these limits just due to the nature of calling stations. Its hard to get a balance of betting enough to get people to fold crap but then if you dont hit anything you've bled a lot of excessive blinds for nothing.

My goal is to just get positive at 2NL over the next couple of months and then get on to 5NL (which im currently rolled for on stars, but obviously I dont want to jump into it if I seemingly cant beat 2NL for a decent rate..)

Originally Posted by marknz88

is that I love to get it in with 2 pair (-$24) or trips (33% win rate).

I didn't check two pair, but I'm running over 800BB/100 over the last six months any time I flop trips (either a set or trips, and ignoring trips on the board) - I didn't check hitting trips on the turn or the river - surely your sample size is too small or you're running really really really badly?

mark, clearly you're doing it wrong. It should look like this

(In all seriousness though, if you'd like some help, PM me and we can set something up)

Thanks for that offer Darin.

So I bit the bullet and signed up to deucescracked. Hopefully this will help set me up for not only the micro's but small to medium stakes later down the track.

Im sure the investment will pay itself off in the long run!

Originally Posted by marknz88

Thanks for that offer Darin.

So I bit the bullet and signed up to deucescracked. Hopefully this will help set me up for not only the micro's but small to medium stakes later down the track.

Im sure the investment will pay itself off in the long run!

No problem. And I'd suggest watching the "Coaching Tree" videos. There's a lot of high level stuff in them that isn't really applicable to the micros, but they are great for showing the mental process you should be going through in each hand and learning the "why" behind each action. Those were my personal favorite vids there.

Goal: Overall win rate +50%
Goal: Breakeven or better at 10nl

That might be too ambitious for Feb, but it's my current goal.

RF