Facing a dilemma

ScottishMatt · Jan 18, 2013

So I've been having some success this month at the 2nl FR tables but my biggest leak is my pre flop mentality. Goes something like this:

I have QQ facing a 3 bet..."Ah what the hell, he has aces but lets get it in"

I'm really hating not being able to get my money in good, specifically pre flop. The mentality of these players is just terrible and I'm seriously not enjoying playing against them. Post flop I normally know exactly where I stand against these guys, TBH I know where I am pre when the 4-bet comes in. I just cant seem to fold my queens or kings to the 3-bet and 4-bets. Some of you are probably horrified that folding even comes into the equation but if I'm never good, and set mining in these spots is all my hand is good for then do I keep putting my money in and just deal with the losses?

Not been counting, but over the 25k hands I have played this month, I have been all in pre (for a full BI) 10-15 times. Only one of those times did I have the best hand with aces, every other time I was against kings or aces.

Is there any way around this, or do I have to keep giving my money away in these spots?

Only alternative I can see is to learn to play 6 max and pray that I get some action.

Bitching thread FTW.

benevg · Jan 18, 2013

if the opposition is made of nits who will only stack off with AA or KK, then you can easily fold there and save your chips. every cent saved is a cent earned on the poker tables.

that said, i have not played 2nl in the longest while, but at the time i used to, people were stacking off with all sorts of random hands. hearing they would only do it with AA makes me

.

ScottishMatt · Jan 18, 2013

It's the passivity that is killing me, I don't even enjoy it because I'm running the same rings again, and again, and again. I'm pretty tight, ask Alfie (AT

) but I don't have a problem putting my money in with the 2nd or 3rd nuts. Some other players don't either, but they will never aggressively do so. Basically put, I can force the hand and get all the money in but I have no way of knowing if they have AA or AJ.

If they put the money in I feel doomed to lose a BI with my QQ or KK. Another reason I still do this even if I think I'm behind is that I assume at the higher levels people are willing to give action and getting myself into a bad habit now wont be very beneficial.

micromachine · Jan 18, 2013

ScottishMatt said:
I just cant seem to fold my queens or kings to the 3-bet and 4-bets. Some of you are probably horrified that folding even comes into the equation.

I am horrified that you would consider folding Kings pre, please don't do that.

Folding QQ pre is best sometimes against more nitty players who 4bet/5bet you

ScottishMatt · Jan 18, 2013

micromachine said:
I am horrified that you would consider folding Kings pre, please don't do that.

Folding QQ pre is best sometimes against more nitty players who 4bet/5bet you

I don't fold my kings pre, and that is what is costing me money. Again the only reason I still put it in is because I'm guessing it changes at higher limits.

micromachine · Jan 18, 2013

AA vs KK is a cooler, the times you go in with KK and lose to AA and the times you go in with AA and beat KK will all even out.

You will still make a lot of money going AIPF with KK because villains will go AIPF with a lot more than just AA....your sample size (10-15 times) this month is pretty small.

ScottishMatt · Jan 18, 2013

Yeah, sample size is tiny. I think the reason for this is that no one is willing to get it in pre with less than aces. I 4-bet all in with QQ, guy tanked and then showed me his KK that he was folding.

I'll get back on the grind now and see how it goes I guess.

Quick question, what should I consider as a 3-bet calling range OOP?

Normally if I get 3-bet and I'm not comfortable getting my money in then I just fold. Really don't want to default to this autopilot mode as I feel it is a bad move.

dsvw56 · Jan 18, 2013

Filtered for Hand = KK and All-in Preflop. Sorted by Date, first however many results my screen can show. Mixture of 4NL and 10NL

themosthigh · Jan 18, 2013

Stop stacking off with queens pre. That should be an easy fix. I play queens almost like I play jacks. I'm stacking off with kings pretty much every time unless the 3/4bet shove comes from an absolute nit who only does it with aces.

benevg · Jan 18, 2013

ScottishMatt said:
Quick question, what should I consider as a 3-bet calling range OOP?

Normally if I get 3-bet and I'm not comfortable getting my money in then I just fold. Really don't want to default to this autopilot mode as I feel it is a bad move.

Andrew Seidman (BalugaWhale) suggests never calling 3bets OOP if you are 100bb deep. either 4bet or fold. since i adopted this strategy, i found poker gets much easier to play

ScottishMatt · Jan 18, 2013

Yeah that is what I tend to do benevg, I hate the thought of 4-bet folding QQ pre though. Same with JJ. What is your strategy in these spots?

4-bet sizing might be a part of my problem, normally it goes 3x. If the best strategy is to 4b/fold. Should I make the sizing 2.2-2.5? I'm figuring that this saves me money when villains come over the top and keeps weaker ranges in?

themosthigh · Jan 18, 2013

You shouldn't be 4bet folding. You shouldn't be 4betting queens or jacks in the first place. Learn how to play post flop and how to fold.

youregoodmate · Jan 18, 2013

themosthigh said:
You shouldn't be 4bet folding. You shouldn't be 4betting queens or jacks in the first place. Learn how to play post flop and how to fold.

Id rather 4 bet pre with JJ-QQ than play oop. Obv villain dependant.

themosthigh · Jan 18, 2013

Well that's where the learn to fold comes in. Don't call 3bets oop. There are some spots I can see where you might 4bet but like you said obv villain dependent and not something I'd get in the habit of doing.

ScottishMatt · Jan 18, 2013

So if I'm OOP the best move is to fold JJ and QQ pre to a 3-bet unless he is a spazztastic 3-bet junkie. In which case 4-bet.

That sound about right?

And as for the "learn to fold". I fold a helluva lot of the time, I was just folding everything pre when OOP if facing a 3-bet (AA and KK exceptions). But just been trying to play a more aggressive game lately, like I'll probably need at higher levels.

micromachine · Jan 18, 2013

ScottishMatt said:
4-bet sizing might be a part of my problem, normally it goes 3x. If the best strategy is to 4b/fold. Should I make the sizing 2.2-2.5? I'm figuring that this saves me money when villains come over the top and keeps weaker ranges in?

2.2-2.5x is great 4b sizing

LD1977 · Jan 18, 2013

These are all my 2NL FR preflop All Ins with KK. I played 24k hands so far.

As you can see, once I run into AA and once into another KK (FTL due to rake).

Strange percentages are multiway All In pots.

themosthigh · Jan 18, 2013

Just folded kings pre bout 20 minutes ago and it wasn't a misclick = (

youregoodmate · Jan 18, 2013

themosthigh said:
Just folded kings pre bout 20 minutes ago and it wasn't a misclick = (

Under what circumstances?

Logan2 · Jan 19, 2013

People usually said that on 2nl 4bets are only AA/KK, well maybe QQ and AK they 4b too, but with queens we are only flipping vs AK and beat by AA/KK so i learn to stop gii QQ on 2nl unless have a good hand sample on player that tell me other way.

QQ allins pre

Now, KK is a different story

Never fold this unless have a reason.

Cafeman · Jan 19, 2013

You should be beating the game just by value betting better than your competition (post flop). Fold QQ preflop to nitty 3bettors, and move on, who cares, it was only a hand you were flipping with at best anyway.

You have a HUD I guess? So you should be able to tell who is taking the piss and who isn't.

fletchdad · Jan 19, 2013

ScottishMatt said:
4-bet sizing might be a part of my problem, normally it goes 3x. If the best strategy is to 4b/fold. Should I make the sizing 2.2-2.5? I'm figuring that this saves me money when villains come over the top and keeps weaker ranges in?

micromachine said:
2.2-2.5x is great 4b sizing

Agree.

themosthigh · Jan 19, 2013

youregoodmate said:
Under what circumstances?

I 3bet MP raiser, folds to SB who 4bet ships 70bb, folds back to original raiser who 5bet shoves all in. I didn't want to fold but I figured the 5bet could be no other than bullets. Sure enough.

themosthigh · Jan 24, 2013

Need to learn to take my own advice about learning to fold. Just found myself in a spot where I should have folded KK pre but didn't. I 3bet an 8/6 nits(600hands) cut off raise from the button, goes back to him and he makes a small 4bet, I ship like a retard cuz I got action on 3 other tables and don't bother looking at villains stats. oops

WVHillbilly · Jan 24, 2013

ScottishMatt said:
So I've been having some success this month at the 2nl FR tables but my biggest leak is my pre flop mentality. Goes something like this:

I have QQ facing a 3 bet..."Ah what the hell, he has aces but lets get it in"

I'm really hating not being able to get my money in good, specifically pre flop. The mentality of these players is just terrible and I'm seriously not enjoying playing against them. Post flop I normally know exactly where I stand against these guys, TBH I know where I am pre when the 4-bet comes in. I just cant seem to fold my queens or kings to the 3-bet and 4-bets. Some of you are probably horrified that folding even comes into the equation but if I'm never good, and set mining in these spots is all my hand is good for then do I keep putting my money in and just deal with the losses?

Not been counting, but over the 25k hands I have played this month, I have been all in pre (for a full BI) 10-15 times. Only one of those times did I have the best hand with aces, every other time I was against kings or aces.

Is there any way around this, or do I have to keep giving my money away in these spots?

Only alternative I can see is to learn to play 6 max and pray that I get some action.

Bitching thread FTW.

What's your 3bet % ?

Facing a dilemma

ScottishMatt

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