Explain concept of Thin Value please.

Can someone explain the concept of thin value please.

Feitr touched on it once when he was reviewing one of my 10nl sessions and said I should be working to get more thin value from 10nl donks.

What does this mean, how do we go about doing it and is it worth it to do so at 10nl all the way up to ????

When the flop comes K92 and you have AK, you bet for value, clearly. There all types of underpair hands, 9x, worse kings, and sometimes JT/QT will even peel with their gutshots.

When we somehow get to the river with KQ on an AJ23K board, the issue of whether we can bet for value is somewhat murkier. We now have to guesstimate if the worse hands in his range are more likely than the better hands, and if he'll call with enough of them to have betting for value yield any value.

It's not something you can just give a formula for and say 'this is how you get thin value'. As your hand reading skills improve, you can better guesstimate the hand range distribution of your opponent, and can therefore bet for value in spots you wouldn't normally.

A thin value bet is one that has a small expectation. Where you think you beat say, 60% of villain's range, but you will often lose 40% of the time if called.

An example:

You hold A♣J♠ against a passive calling station postflop in a raised pot.

Flop comes Q♥J♦2♥. We bet 75% pot. Turn is a 4♦. We bet 75% pot again.

Villain could certainly have a queen. However, we're looking to extract value from the many other hands he could be calling with. So if you bet a hand like AJ on a AJT98 river, you're looking to get value from weaker two pairs & bluff catchers that just don't believe you (and it helps if you think its unlikely your opponent has a straight/set).

Chuck has the right idea tho. As your hand reading skills improve (and as your image gets worse), you'll be able to bet for value some hands you'd normally think aren't all that great, because you can rule out a lot of the better hands that your opponent could have.

Ok, so is it profitable at the lower limits to try for it ?
Or will they call down with any pair so to speak too often for it to be ?

My reading skills are probably way too undeveloped for this anyway ..

You answered your own question here. I would think it is very profitable to value bet more thinly since you will be called down lighter against the calling stations. As you know not to bluff a calling station, you should also be value betting a lot more as they will call with there 3rd pair type hands.

Th fact that they'll call down with any pair makes getting thin value that much easier. If you're betting 2nd pair and only expect to be called by TP, you're not betting for value. If you're betting 2nd pair because your opponent will call you with worse, you are.

Its the most profitable move you'll ever make. When you leave 10$ & 25$ NL, your thin value-betting skills should be stupid good, and you should be able to read fish like reading your ABC's. Fish call too often with weak hands. Punish them by betting hands that while weak, are still ahead of their weak-ass ranges. And I think Chuck's example isn't thin at all

Here's a hand where I thought about betting 3-streets against a station, and he called both streets with A4o. You can find the whole hand analysis thread here: http://www.cardschat.com/f50/25-nl-6...-super-119958/ (http://www.cardschat.com/f50/25-nl-6max-thin-value-super-119958/)


Seat 4: zapa2525 ( $40.24 USD )
Seat 6: Hero ( $78.27 USD )
zapa2525 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Hero posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ ]
mixednut425 calls [$0.25 USD]
zapa2525 calls [$0.15 USD]
Hero checks
** Dealing Flop ** [ ]
zapa2525 checks
Hero bets [$0.60 USD]
mixednut425 folds
zapa2525 calls [$0.60 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
zapa2525 checks
Hero bets [$1.00 USD]
zapa2525 calls [$1.00 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ ]
zapa2525 checks
Hero....

Hm I guess I have some way to go then. Although I think I occasionally do it even without knowing exactly what it is I'm doing.

Is it correct that vs weak players they will often call flop and turn and then dump it on the river.

For example an obvious flushdraw, if I bet with a 2nd pair or something and he calls flop and turn but didn't improve on river, I bet river anyway with a mediocre hand at best. That's thin value then ?

Today I bet my 2nd nut flush draw on all streets, he called flop and turn and folded the river while I didn't even have a pair, just a busted flush draw which is what I thought he had as well.

If you can never expect him to call with a hand that you beat you're NOT betting for value, you're bluffing.

OK, bad example

Basically you are exploiting certain factors to get value out of a hand that you probably shouldn't be able to get.

So vs bad players who call too much you can probably triple barrel TPNK because they will call you down with garbage. Vs alot of players you can get 2 streets (flop/turn) with crap like bottom pair because they will call so lightly on flop/turn (then typically give up once they miss). But you wouldn't be able to get 2 streets if you checked behind bottom pair on the flop because they would call turn but fold river. When villain's range is wide you can get alot thinner value. Like i've shoved 2ndPTK on the river before because i know that villain can call me down lighter than that given the board and image.

And image is the 2nd big deal. You can get thin value from good players as well. If your image is "bad" or aggro and in villain's eyes you are likely to run big bluffs, then villain will start calling you down lighter. And so your correct adjustment is not to just start playing good hands or always having the goods, but is to start vbetting alot thinner and so villain's "bluff catching range" starts to fare extremely poorly vs your thin value betting range. For example, if villain thinks you have an extremely high double barreling frequency and will 100% bluff turn scare cards, then you can start to do things like vbet what is now 2nd pair no kicker on the turn and completely expect to get called by worse. You can also start to run big triple barrels with medium strength hands like for example.

Playing a TAG, flop comes 56ssT and you have AT, turn comes offsuit J and river comes offsuit K. You could probably bet pot every street here and with the right dynamic probably get looked up by any pair because all the draws missed, villain doesn't beleive you and it looks more likely to villain that you are just firing the scare cards than actually have a hand (and there aren't many Js or Ks in a TAGs range here).

In your case, what i was saying was that your range was very polarized and so you would be incredibly easy to read. You blast away 3 streets with air, but then do this silly check behind pot control stuff with strong hands, or really odd lines with monsters. The reasons your bluffs don't work out that well is coz players at 10nl call down so light, so you should adjust and get 3 streets of value from your medium/strong hands (but not necessarily monsters).

If you can't vbet thin, your range is going to be polarized. And then it becomes easy to read you because you either have a monster or you have air when you are bet bet betting and it isn't that hard to look at the board, think through the combinations and figure out what action is profitable to make vs your range.

But image doesn't matter at micro stakes - it is all about exploiting the bad players who call way too much. If somebody is going to call light on flop/turn then bet bet with your marginal hands and check behind river. As a side note, vs these kind of players often the best "bluff line" is just to cbet, check behind on turn, then fire river when checked to - probably just as effective as 3 barrel and way way cheaper.

And just to expand ^^ a little.

Look for specific flop textures to try and get thin value from bad villains. Monotone flops are excellent examples, coz bad players will just c/c 2 streets with a big suited card and so you can get 2 streets of value with a bad pair then just c/f if the 4th suit hits on the river. Flops like 67J. You can get alot of value with a hand like A6 or 78 on this flop and alot of turns because guys will stick around unecessarily with SDs and GSs.

Here is an example which might make it a little clearer - far from a typical thin value but if you follow what i say about it i think you should understand better.

Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: feitr ( $109.20 USD )
Seat 2: thomaskvxxx ( $347.40 USD )
feitr posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
thomaskvxxx posts big blind [$1.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to feitr [ 9c 9s ]
feitr raises [$2.50 USD]
thomaskvxxx raises [$9.00 USD]
feitr calls [$7.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, 6s, Jh ]
thomaskvxxx bets [$14.62 USD]
feitr calls [$14.62 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7d ]
thomaskvxxx bets [$24.37 USD]
feitr raises [$84.58 USD]
thomaskvxxx calls [$60.21 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 9d ]
thomaskvxxx shows [8d, 7h ]
feitr shows [9c, 9s ]
feitr wins $217.90 USD from main pot

At first glance this probably looks terrible on my part. Against most players you'd think i'm sort of mixed up and half bluffing half value shoving this flop. Basic point being that in a vaccum this looks anything but standard.

However, in this case, villain is pretty wild, although he does have a clue. Stats are like 62/56/9.75. 3B% of 58%, cbet% of 100% and double barrel% of 55%.

So on the flop we know nothing about villain's range except that i crush it. On the turn, villain's range has tightened somewhat, but it is still quite wide and is far more than a J. 58% 3B means a huge range of hands, tons of which are stuff like 9To or 86o, etc. Now the reason i shove is this - i can't really call a 3rd barrel from villain (only cbet river 25%, and in any case i was moreorless convinced that a river bet would never be a bluff). So there is no way of getting the money in on the river and me being good, unless i make a retarded donk shove and expect to get called by like 3rd pair, which also isn't happening). That said, villain's range will have alot of 2nd/3rd pair hands or straight draws, which i don't think villain is folding on the turn at all (although he prob would on river) because sometimes i am going to just spaz out in frustration, sometimes i am going to shove a draw, and me having a J or overpair here (which is what i am representing) just isn't that likely. And so by shoving a hand very light like i do here, i am actually in a position where i can get called by ALOT worse due to metagame/board texture. So hopefully that helps.

Well thank you Feitr for the explanation and the example. I must admit I don't really get the example fully.

How is shoving a river where you hit a set thin value ?
Isn't that more of an overbet for value ? Yes, you explained that you got him to call with 3rd pair by shoving. So that's the whole point right ?

I shoved turn with an underpair. Rivered a set, but that didn't matter since villain was only drawing to 5 outs.

The point of the example was actually that i couldn't get value in on the river, but given metagame/villain's range i could do so on the turn, even tho it seems thin without reads, etc.

The bet size isn't important. What is important is that Feitr is betting a mediocre hand for value because he thinks villain's range is wide enough that 99 is ahead of his calling range. You just bet whatever you think villain will call.

Oh I see, the hand history got me turned around.

I get it now, thanks