Doyle Brunson's Super System - too loose?

#1 29th January 2008, 8:24 AM

I've been reading this book, and I wouldn't necessarily say that I would recommend it for new online players. It's good that he covers a wide range of games, but I find it a little off-putting that he keeps talking about tournaments in 1976 and 1977, and I'm not convinced that advice that would be solid gold for people playing live poker is necessarily totally applicable to online play

The confusing thing for me is that he suggests playing a very wide range of hands, mainly because people don't expect you to, and so you can win big from a flop that appears fairly useless to most people. However, a lot of poker experts seem to suggest that the biggest weakness of most new players is that they play too many hands, and they should make a conscious effort to play fewer hands

Surely these two viewpoints are contradictory?

#2 29th January 2008, 8:33 AM

That's because it's not a beginner's book.

A LAG style requires good hand reading skill which most new players don't have. Doyle suggests an overly lag style and that in turn requires even more hand reading skill. Others (Harrington comes to mind) suggest a tighter style because it's just plain easier to play and doesn't require much experience.

#3 29th January 2008, 8:47 AM

Well he does put a lot of emphasis on reading other players, but a lot of tells don't really seem to apply to the online game as much as they do to live games. From what you're saying it's probably best if I come back and re-read this book after I've gained a lot more experience, maybe in a year or so, because I am currently an extremely inexperienced player

#4 29th January 2008, 8:55 AM

For online play it's good as just a little bit of knowledge to have under your belt, but you'll make your most money multitabling a tag style in the low/micro limits, and playing tourneys similarly (more aggression is needed in tourneys but you get the point).

You probably won't be able to make much of a profit playing like a maniac online. Most tables will either have people who are loose/bad enough to look you up more often than you'd like, or they'll be smarter players who pick up on your style and start picking your bluffs off.

I'd suggest going and picking up the harrington series and some small stakes books.

#5 29th January 2008, 9:05 AM

Had a quick look on Amazon but the Harrington tourney books they list all have the word "expert" in the title:

Amazon.co.uk: Harrington on Hold 'em: Expert Strategy for No Limit Tournaments: The Endgame: Amazon.co.uk:: Dan Harrington,Bill Robertie

Amazon.co.uk: Harrington on Hold 'em: Expert Strategy for No Limit Tournaments: Strategic Play v. 1: Amazon.co.uk:: Dan Harrington,Bill Robertie

Amazon.co.uk: Harrington on Hold 'em: Expert Strategies for No Limit Tournaments: Workbook v. 3 (Harrington on Hold'em): Amazon.co.uk:: Dan Harrington

#6 29th January 2008, 9:08 AM

Believe me, they'll give you a VERY solid foundation for NLHE, specifically tournaments

#7 29th January 2008, 9:11 AM

OK thanks, I was just a little concerned that again it might be aimed at more advanced players than me, as it includes the word expert in the title. I was expecting something a little more like "Harrington's Idiot's Guide to Tournament NLHE"

#8 29th January 2008, 8:58 PM

we have also to aware what kind of games that doyle normally play in? he plays in very deep stack cash game....where playing small/medium 1-gap/2-gaps for deception is ok, as the implied odds is large

#9 29th January 2008, 11:21 PM

As i am mainly a live player and i play with a LAG style. Super system is my favourite poker book, it has helped my game a significant amount and helped me refine the edges in my style considerably. It definately is not a book for beginnered, you would have needed to have palyed poekr for a few months and know a few tricks before attempted to read it

#10 30th January 2008, 1:36 AM

Doyle is a bit too loose for me online, but Harrington a bit too tight. In a live game I play a bit more tight so Harrington is closer because for the most part people just play better hands live and domination occurs much more frequently.

#11 30th January 2008, 2:39 AM

Something to consider also about Super System is that when he wrote the book poker was not as popular at that time so it was easier to push people around and be a little more loose with starting hands.

g/l

#12 30th January 2008, 3:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoWuckingFurries

OK thanks, I was just a little concerned that again it might be aimed at more advanced players than me, as it includes the word expert in the title. I was expecting something a little more like "Harrington's Idiot's Guide to Tournament NLHE"

It's definitely not a beginner's book, but if you have general knowledge of the game (which judging from the posts I've read by you you do have), it should be very helpful. It definitely helped me a lot.

And on Supersystem, I can't believe no one ever says anything about the portion where he talks of poker actually involving real ESP. I still can't believe a poker player as good as Brunson would actually put that in his book.

#13 30th January 2008, 3:58 AM

Where does he talk about esp? I specifically remember him talking about recall, which is essentially having a good memory and applying it properly to poker, but nothing about esp...

#14 30th January 2008, 5:43 AM

esp? im with chuck on that one, he refers to applien knowledge gained earlier and trusting you gut instinct alot.

I will try really hard to tell you what i have when we play zach, if you get it right you get a cookie

#15 30th January 2008, 8:28 AM

Quote:

but if you have general knowledge of the game (which judging from the posts I've read by you you do have)

Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckTs

Where does he talk about esp? I specifically remember him talking about recall, which is essentially having a good memory and applying it properly to poker, but nothing about esp...

P430, Reading Hands/Going On Tilt:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doyle Brunson

Whenever I use the word "feel"... you should understand that it's not some extra-sensory power that I have (although, as I noted in the section on GENERAL POKER STRATEGY, I do believe there is something to the theories relating to ESP). I recall what happened... even though I might not consciously do it... I recall that this same play came up (or something close to it) and this is what he did or what somebody else did. So I get a feeling that he's bluffing or that I can make a play here and get the pot. But, actually my subconscious mind is reasoning it all out.

#16 31st January 2008, 3:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

And on Supersystem, I can't believe no one ever says anything about the portion where he talks of poker actually involving real ESP. I still can't believe a poker player as good as Brunson would actually put that in his book.

It surprised me a little too. As NWF has quoted, he rationalises it a bit, but it's definitely in there.

As far as OP goes... I think most of the points have been raised already. Keep in mind that it's not a beginners book, but also that it's not a low-stakes book either. He's talking about sitting at a table with $20K in front of him, and that was in 1970s dollars - some of the strategies discussed just aren't going to work when the amount of money in the pot will only buy the winner a pack of cigarettes or a six pack.

Definitely read it - even if you don't incorporate it all into your game, it'll still help you become a more rounded player. But there are definitely other texts that will help you more in the short term.

#17 31st January 2008, 5:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzExorcist

As far as OP goes... I think most of the points have been raised already. Keep in mind that it's not a beginners book, but also that it's not a low-stakes book either. He's talking about sitting at a table with $20K in front of him, and that was in 1970s dollars - some of the strategies discussed just aren't going to work when the amount of money in the pot will only buy the winner a pack of cigarettes or a six pack.

Definitely read it - even if you don't incorporate it all into your game, it'll still help you become a more rounded player. But there are definitely other texts that will help you more in the short term.

Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller Comes to mind.

#18 31st January 2008, 7:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchrs

Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller Comes to mind.

Well if that's this one, it sounds as though the oft-mentioned Mr Sklansky was also involved, which is another good sign, so thanks for that tip

#19 31st January 2008, 8:08 AM

Actually, reading the reviews of that book it appears that:

It's about Limit Hold'em, rather than No Limit
Some of David Sklansky's contributions are quite arrogant, and he believes that online poker play is looser than it actually is

Maybe that isn't the book that you were referring to?

#20 31st January 2008, 2:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckTs

Where does he talk about esp? I specifically remember him talking about recall, which is essentially having a good memory and applying it properly to poker, but nothing about esp...

I'll get you a quote later, but he speficially says something like "when you are playing and you just KNOW what they have, how can you discount the idea of ESP? I forget exactly what his point with that comment was, but I'll look that up later this afternoon and post it. This just amazed me and I read it a few times because I couldn't believe a player this good was actually claiming that part of poker skill was ESP.

#21 31st January 2008, 2:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchrs

esp? im with chuck on that one, he refers to applien knowledge gained earlier and trusting you gut instinct alot.

I will try really hard to tell you what i have when we play zach, if you get it right you get a cookie

What kind of cookie? Gotta know if this is worth it or not

#22 31st January 2008, 3:10 PM

HoH vol 2 is SO POWERFUL !

How powerful is is dj??

It's so Powerful I bought the book Saturday afternoon, and without reading a single page, I won the FT Buy in event Sunday morning!

#23 31st January 2008, 3:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj11

HoH vol 2 is SO POWERFUL !

How powerful is is dj??

It's so Powerful I bought the book Saturday afternoon, and without reading a single page, I won the FT Buy in event Sunday morning!

lol, u had to throw in a little brag

but seriously it is a good book

#24 31st January 2008, 3:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckTs

Where does he talk about esp? I specifically remember him talking about recall, which is essentially having a good memory and applying it properly to poker, but nothing about esp...

Entire section on it, page 23:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super System, Page 23

"I believe some good Poker players actually employ a degree of extrasensory perception (ESP). While I've never studied the subject in depth, it seems to me there's too much evidence to ignore that ESP exists or that most people have it to some degree. Everybody has had the experience of riding with someone else in an automobile and thinking of a song, then being surprised to hear his companion start singing that very song.

You can't imagine how often I've called a player's exact hand to myself and been proven right. There's even a plausible, though completely unproven, explanation how a person could know what cards another player is holding. The brain's functions involve electrical impulses. In this electronic age we're becoming more familiar every day with appliances which broadcast, purely as an unintentional by-product, energy impulses which are picked up on dissimilar appliances at considerable distances.

Is it really too unreasonable to suspect that such a highly sophisticated electrical device as the human brain, during the intensity of concentration in a big pot, could broadcast a simple message like a "Pair of Jacks" a mere eight feet?"

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