Donk bets

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billatx

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What is this that makes donks bets special?

Why is it considered bad by many players?

Is there any time you should not donk bet for value?

Having the same cards on the same flop,are you supposed to act differently when you are first to act :
a)when you have and
b)when you don't have initiative?
 
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Poker_play

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You know it's gotta be bad if it's called a donk bet lol.
I take it as a cue to fire in most situations..and have done so very successly. Also generally sign of a weak player (while this is a stretch to base off just donk bets, in my experience they mostly come from fish). Players that donk bet regularly are generally super easy to catch betting trends from--how often are they donk betting? How strong were their hands? Often see them just bet to the strength of their hands (donk betting on their turn when they have it), I react accordingly..and they're basically dead money (pending the right spot, since their hands are easier reads).
If you really hit a flop, when someone else 3bet pre..wouldn't you check to get a likely Cbet from the raiser (which happpens very frequently, even if he has air)? Makes all types of EV sense.
Yes, I think you have to play the same cards/same flop differently depending on whether you or villain have initiative. Ignoring initiative I think in the long run would be just as bad as ignoring position and just playing the cards in your hands--something that winning poker players simply cant afford to do.
 
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billatx

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Any reasons why somebody should not donk value bet flop?
 
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Rickman

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Far from an expert, so take with a grain of salt...
I'm reading "Decide to Play Great Poker" and they recommend considering a weak lead on the flop when you don't have initiative if you are heads up against a strong player and you have a monster. It will very likely induce the re-raise (see Poker_play's reply on this post), and you've built a bigger pot than just checking to his c-bet.
Against lesser opponents, not as good a strategy. They would just weakly call or even fold.
 
Ezekiel162

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Against agro players = no.

Against good aggressive regs = yes.
Could you expand on this a little more? I had asked something to this effect a little while ago and still trying to grasp it in bits here and there. I was always told that most tend to avoid donk bets because it shows "inexperience" if not done right? Some say "ettiquette" like it's some sort of unspoken/unknown rule...? :confused:
 
John A

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Could you expand on this a little more? I had asked something to this effect a little while ago and still trying to grasp it in bits here and there. I was always told that most tend to avoid donk bets because it shows "inexperience" if not done right? Some say "ettiquette" like it's some sort of unspoken/unknown rule...? :confused:

How many times has someone "donked" into you and you folded when you didn't have a hand?

The part I originally responded to was "donking" for value. So hopefully we're talking about the same thing.
 
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billatx

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How many times has someone "donked" into you and you folded when you didn't have a hand?

The part I originally responded to was "donking" for value. So hopefully we're talking about the same thing.

I donk-bet flop when i think i have the best hand or a draw,i donk-check flop otherwise and i almost always fold to donk-bets when i have nothing.

What am i doing wrong?
 
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BlueNowhere

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I donk-bet flop when i think i have the best hand or a draw,i donk-check flop otherwise and i almost always fold to donk-bets when i have nothing.

What am i doing wrong?

You're doing things with absolutely no reasoning at all. Solid way to lose lots of $$$.
 
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billatx

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You're doing things with absolutely no reasoning at all. Solid way to lose lots of $$$.

My default reasoning when dealing with donk bets on flop is that i bet for value.And i fold when i'm being bet and probably beat.

How can it be loosing $$$???

Do you have any better reasoning?
 
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Donk betting is generally a bad idea since c/r or c/c are often better lines to take.

If we never donk bet, then we only have a checking range on the flop. That range can further be broken down into more specific groups given what lines we take from there. For example, when we check to the preflop raiser and he bets, we will now have a range for check/raising, check/calling and check/folding. That is 3 hand groupings that we should be looking to balance well so that we are not easily exploitable while trying to exploit our opponents as much as we can.

Those 3 ranges I just talked about are going to drastically shrink once we add in a donking range. Now we have a donk/fold, donk/3bet and donk/call range to balance along with all our checking lines. If we donk too little then it makes it easy for villains to pinpoint what sorts of hands we are doing it with and then adjust accordingly. For example, if we just start donking with our nut hands, then our check raise range is going to be really weak. If we donk out with middle strength hands then villains can apply lots of pressure on us with draws because they know we never have the nuts, and would also cause our c/c range to shrink, giving villains more incentive to cbet against us when we check to them.

All in all, donk betting complicates things in HU spots against good players. We should not want to do that when we are oop.

In multiway pots where fish are involved and TAG that raised pre is unlikely to cbet you should probably forget about balance and just try to maximally exploit the fish.

In HU spots vs fish I would really just look at each hand in a vacuum and if donking seems like a more +ev line than checking then do it.
 
Ezekiel162

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Donk betting is generally a bad idea since c/r or c/c are often better lines to take.

If we never donk bet, then we only have a checking range on the flop. That range can further be broken down into more specific groups given what lines we take from there. For example, when we check to the preflop raiser and he bets, we will now have a range for check/raising, check/calling and check/folding. That is 3 hand groupings that we should be looking to balance well so that we are not easily exploitable while trying to exploit our opponents as much as we can.

Those 3 ranges I just talked about are going to drastically shrink once we add in a donking range. Now we have a donk/fold, donk/3bet and donk/call range to balance along with all our checking lines. If we donk too little then it makes it easy for villains to pinpoint what sorts of hands we are doing it with and then adjust accordingly. For example, if we just start donking with our nut hands, then our check raise range is going to be really weak. If we donk out with middle strength hands then villains can apply lots of pressure on us with draws because they know we never have the nuts, and would also cause our c/c range to shrink, giving villains more incentive to cbet against us when we check to them.

All in all, donk betting complicates things in HU spots against good players. We should not want to do that when we are oop.

In multiway pots where fish are involved and TAG that raised pre is unlikely to cbet you should probably forget about balance and just try to maximally exploit the fish.

In HU spots vs fish I would really just look at each hand in a vacuum and if donking seems like a more +ev line than checking then do it.

TY for your original response 'Bowlboy. Clears up a few things. My last inquiry as to donk bets went kinda to tha left field as well which is why i never really inquired about it again until now. Also one of tha reasons why I avoid cash threads myself is because i'm not experienced enough to give comments to players that understand it more than I do... I'll do some more reading and searching as well... thnx...
 
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BlueNowhere

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Whoever would prove to be a better player HU cash would/should be the better player at 6max cash. Its the same game just with wider ranges.

Think of it this way, every hand one of you is the button and the other is the BB and its always an opportunity to steal the blinds.

I would not draw any conclusions from a small sample size though. If you guys do some sort of challenge like instead of waving your epeens around then I'd suggest something with more volume.

If he can't work out why donking is bad in most spots I don't expect him to be able to see that any decent player would just be able to adjust to HU.
 
smokeme

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i think donk betting is bad unless u have a reason for it. if you hit top pair with good kicker oop why not let another player make the mistake of stabing at the pot unlesss its a very wet board. so if u donk bet your top pair where most likely you have the best hand. you either get floated which you still dont know where your at or you lose money cuz they fold most of the time.
 
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billatx

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What i understand is that somebody should generally donk bet at 2 occcasions.
1)Top pairs on wet boards
2)When they are chasing a flush or a straight draw.

I'm i thinking right?
 
tenbob

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Blue and billatx, I have deleted your lovely thread derail. If you want to challenge each other and insult each other i suggest you make a thread in challenges or take it to PM. Any further derails in this thread or indeed others will result in an infraction.
 
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BlueNowhere

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Meh, he;s not going to accept any challenge so pointless creating a therad. I've got him on ignore now anyway, I wish I had discovered the ignore button a few months earlier lol.
 
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billatx

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Lol!So ,what would you do on a Qd3d6s board with JsJh ?

I would rather check raise.

What would you do if called?

I'd rather check-fold turn
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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depends on the spot really, I don't think you're gonna have JJ OOP without the lead too often tbh.
 
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Lol!So ,what would you do on a Qd3d6s board with JsJh ?

I would rather check raise.

What would you do if called?

I'd rather check-fold turn

Why would you check raise JJ here?

Are worse hands calling?

Are better hands folding?

The answer is probably no.

So you are simply raising purely for information with a hand that is very likely to win at showdown.

Why not c/c and let him bluff with A high?
 
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billatx

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Why would you check raise JJ here?

Are worse hands calling?

Are better hands folding?

The answer is probably no.

So you are simply raising purely for information with a hand that is very likely to win at showdown.

Why not c/c and let him bluff with A high?

1)I don't think than anybody would bluff both flop and turn.

2)Many people would call my raise when on a diamonds draw.
 
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1)I don't think than anybody would bluff both flop and turn.

2)Many people would call my raise when on a diamonds draw.

1) then you can call flop and fold the turn since you know you're always beat. See how you saved money there?

2) That is true but against a flush draw you are often just flipping if he has 1 overcard. I wouldn't call this a value raise. With close equity I'd give the advantage to the player in position especially since you are planning on check folding the turn. So sometimes you c/r villain calls with the fd and you check the turn he bluffs, you fold. Other times he hits the flush you check turn he bets you fold. That is a lot of building big pots wit a good hand and then folding.

If you feel that you cannot play hands like this profitably by trying to get them to showdown then go ahead and turn them into bluffs. It can work and show you an overall profit but it isn't necessary.

Lets face it, you're not going to get away with bluffing every time. Why waste bluffs on hands that are likely to win at showdown when you can use a hand that is unlikely to win at showdown. This is especially true when you plan on bluffing the flop and check folding the turn.

I understand why you want to take initiative in these spots. Passive lines oop are difficult to play and feel uncomfortable. If you learn to assign ranges and get a good feel for villains range when he bets the turn things will get a lot easier for you.

I would recommend that you post more hands rather than all these general questions. I sort of get the impression that you're looking for some kind of recipe of if I have x on a y flop then I do z.

There's just too many variables to take this approach though.
 
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billatx

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1) then you can call flop and fold the turn since you know you're always beat. See how you saved money there?

2) That is true but against a flush draw you are often just flipping if he has 1 overcard. I wouldn't call this a value raise. With close equity I'd give the advantage to the player in position especially since you are planning on check folding the turn. So sometimes you c/r villain calls with the fd and you check the turn he bluffs, you fold. Other times he hits the flush you check turn he bets you fold. That is a lot of building big pots wit a good hand and then folding.

If you feel that you cannot play hands like this profitably by trying to get them to showdown then go ahead and turn them into bluffs. It can work and show you an overall profit but it isn't necessary.

Lets face it, you're not going to get away with bluffing every time. Why waste bluffs on hands that are likely to win at showdown when you can use a hand that is unlikely to win at showdown. This is especially true when you plan on bluffing the flop and check folding the turn.

I understand why you want to take initiative in these spots. Passive lines oop are difficult to play and feel uncomfortable. If you learn to assign ranges and get a good feel for villains range when he bets the turn things will get a lot easier for you.

I would recommend that you post more hands rather than all these general questions. I sort of get the impression that you're looking for some kind of recipe of if I have x on a y flop then I do z.

There's just too many variables to take this approach though.

The thing is that calling from blinds and then not donk betting for value is something very new for me.And it is strange for me to call from blinds and then miss the flop bet.I feel lost,i don't know where i stand.

How can you hand range somebody who opens from button preflop and then cbets flop 100% either as a bluff or for value?

I feel totally lost then.
 
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TheBowlBoy

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The thing is that calling from blinds and then not donk betting for value is something very new for me.And it is strange for me to call from blinds and then miss the flop bet.I feel lost,i don't know where i stand.

How can you hand range somebody who opens from button preflop and then cbets flop 100% either as a bluff or for value?

I feel totally lost then.

Okay now we're getting somewhere :)

Let's say villain opens 40% of hands on the button and you flat call in the blinds.

You believe that he is cbetting this flop 100% of the time.

His preflop range was; 44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o

And now when he bets the flop his range is still:
44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o

If you flop a medium strength hand and donk out most of these hands here would/should fold. If you check, ALL of them will bet. What is better? Obviously you want him to bet here.

With experience you'll get better at this. At the micros not many villains are betting the flop turn and river with air. Some just bet the flop and give up. Some are more balanced and will make some timely 2nd barrel bluffs mixed in with their value bets but most players are just bad. If you study, and practice assigning ranges while at the tables and estimating your equity against those ranges it'll start to make more sense to yo.
 
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billatx

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Okay now we're getting somewhere :)

Let's say villain opens 40% of hands on the button and you flat call in the blinds.

You believe that he is cbetting this flop 100% of the time.

His preflop range was; 44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o

And now when he bets the flop his range is still:
44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o

If you flop a medium strength hand and donk out most of these hands here would/should fold. If you check, ALL of them will bet. What is better? Obviously you want him to bet here.

With experience you'll get better at this. At the micros not many villains are betting the flop turn and river with air. Some just bet the flop and give up. Some are more balanced and will make some timely 2nd barrel bluffs mixed in with their value bets but most players are just bad. If you study, and practice assigning ranges while at the tables and estimating your equity against those ranges it'll start to make more sense to yo.
Nice one!
As i said i'm totally inexperienced at those situations and experience is more than have the way to understand that one.

Could you give me some 3beting/calling/folding ranges from the blinds against an average opponent?
 
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