Do you Multi-Table Cash games? Please help me.

Im 16 tabling 6max 5NL & 10NL blended. I have no problem with the volume. And i do my best at table selection. But...


I dont know what to do. I am completely at a loss. Iam getting so thoroughly crushed I feel like its a freakin hidden camera show. Im waiting for FTP to jump out and be like "GOTCHA!!!" Its a complete and consuming set-up. Im on a devastating 50k+ hand downswing.

Now I know other people make these same posts. How theyre losing and cant win, then they talk about how theyre AA got cracked twice and they lost to a flush or some BS. This is NOT THAT.


I dont want to hear about variance. I understand variance completely but at somepoint thats just BS too Ive been getting set-up crushed for 2 weeks at a pretty high volume. Hands that you have to get in in with only to find out your shipping the pot across the table. I wont make actual references, but I will say my EV had almost been polarized. Meaning if I have a high +EV Im losing alot. Example AA = 20% win ratio.


I been playing at FTP. Ive just started mult-tabling at this volume recently. I get rake back. Im barely staying afloat but I feel like Im playing better than ever. My play has switched to post flop playand Im fairly good at it pretty fast. But I cant win with good hands.



What I want to know is this...

Have you had downswings like this? Do you play at FTP? This cant be common. (Please tell me its not.)

Im killing rake back even with losing Im still +side profit according to PTR. But Im not playing for rakeback.


When does it stop? I mean I dont think Ive EVER ran good for more than 1 day. Am I just unlucky?

Obv. I know you dont have the answer I need. But some good advice would be seriously appreciated. Im so competitive... Im dying inside. LOL








*** Sorry for this post. I never imagined Id be posting something like this. But again, Im just trying to figure this Mutl-table NLHE thing out.

In my opinion...

You're playing too many tables and leaking chips so bad that it's impossible to win.


"Im on a devastating 50k+ hand downswing"
"Ive just started mult-tabling at this volume recently."


You could be just running really, really, really bad, but I think it's more likely you're playing too many tables.

how big is your downswing..i recently had a 22 buy in loss at 10NL and that was 6 tabling...

How many tables were you playing previous to jumping to 16? Multi-tabling is a skill that you learn and master just like any other. Your best bet is to add tables slowly and check your hourly rate after 50K-100K hands. If you're making more $$ that you were before add another table or 2 and repeat.

You have to lower the number of the tables... If you crush certain level on 2 tables, then you add 1 or 2 more.. If you crush the level with 4 tables - then you can go to 6 or 8.

You can't work on making bigger non-showdown winnings when you multi-table,because you can't follow the action closely to choose the right moments to bluff...

Again. Its not the volume. Actually 16 tables is easy for me. EV Up. Profit Down. What more can I say?


Anyone have solid advice? Preferably someone who is playing alot of volume.

Playing 16 tables may be easy for you but I'm willing to bet that playing 16 tables well isn't.

Other than that it's called variance (you already know this) and there is no magic solution. Just practice good BRM and keep playing. If you can't handle losing, you'll find it's very hard to win.

were you winning when you played fewer tables? If so there may be a correlation to the number of tables at which you play and the quality of the play that is executed at said tables.
What was your win rate before- what is it now? how many tables did you play before? I think FPaulson said something about winning players thinking that because they are a "winning player" that that virtue will be maintained regardless of how many tables they play at. The truth is that the more tables you play the more sloppy your play gets. Just because you won 6bb/100 when youplayed 8 tables does not mean you will get 3bb/100 playing 16. You may, in fact, go negative!

Here's a thought that my help: you say you have switched to post flop play, and as you are playing lots of tables are you only playing premium hands (as most mts do)? If your focus is on post-flop you could be letting people in too cheap. Even with pokertracker working it is tough to know how to play your AA against two opponents to a 78J board when you have been distracted by several other tables since the preflop betting (was it UTG or the button that raised???).

And here's another thought: what you describe sounds like variance yet you say it isn't. Try explaining to me why it isn't. I don't mean to be patronising here, but the process of explaining might uncover something you don't know about variance (and perhaps I don't know) or uncover some other thing that's going on.

I hope this has been some help as I feel your frustration.

dont we have to simplify our game more when we add more tables???

Thanks.


No I dont only play primo's. Thanks god or I'd be broke. Mostly I play the button with strong hands and hands that are easy to play postflop.

variance is simple. Just because your AA is gonna win 8 out of 10 times doesnt mean it wins 8 times in a row followed by two losses. It evens out over time.

I guess it depends on what simplified poker means to you. I have simplified my game. But to me that doesnt mean only play when I get AA or KK. I dont think I could EVER be a winning player like that.

I didnt see this before. My losses are a bit more than that but thats good to know that they can be pretty big.

Good poker still relies on constant participation in what is going on at your table(s). Lower the number so you can put them all on one or two screens and be able to see the action. It will help when you make notes on the players also. I use notes mostly in private tourneys like CC, cause I know I will play with that player again in the future.

Six tables laid out so you can view them all is my suggestion. If one table is a losing table close it and open another table. Don't stay around with the theory of a comeback at the losing table. I find that if one player is hitting every thing under the sun, deal with the lose and move on. X

If its not variance then you are bad at poker.

I dont know what other answer you are looking for. You play a lot of tables and are losing, which is either: 1- variance eventually you will recover. 2- you are not playing a winning game, play fewer tables or change to a strategy that wins.

Your problem is variance.

I've never believed the popular theory that if you multi-table you should only play premium hands. In my opinion if you do that you are stunting your game and are way too predictable. When I multi-table my game does not change.I still play table position and steal pots. This practise does not allow me to play more than four tables comfortably. If I try to play more than that it is too difficult to keep track of what is happening at each table and make good decisions.

Ok now I just feel like Im being robbed.

Im thinking that there really isnt a way for variance to even this out. Im down like 46 buy-ins. My bankroll is just being eaten away. Honestly Im starting to think something shady is happening. If this was happening to you Im sure youd feel the same way.


I play so tight and solid, from position and the hands that I have to get the money in with ... I lose. Im not winning ANY of the big pots. I still have a bankroll at this point because of bluffing from position.


Im gonna take a week and play at a minimum and watch a bunch of videos. Then try again. If it keeps happening, Im suing. lol jk.

I don't know what to tell you, 46 buy ins isn't variance. Depending on your standard deviation the odds are well bellow 1% (like more than a hundred times less).

You're playing a losing game.

You need to seriously spend some time reviewing sessions and looking for small and big leaks. Post in hand analysis. Next time that you would play, don't, open up poker tracker/holdem manager/whatever and go through it looking for leaks. I'm not saying you're bad at poker or trying to be rude, everyone (especially me) does stupid stuff that causes them to be unproffitable at times.

My advice to you is to grab say the top 500 or 1000 pots you lost from your tracking software (if you can) and just analyze your play, trying to find mistakes.

Better yet, ask someone else to do that as well, as you're inclined to not see your own mistakes - it's a natural tendency. Then maybe you'll see more clearly if you're playing bad poker or there is something else.

One question: why do you want to play 16 tables? I imagine on 5/10 NL with 4 or 6 tables you can make a whole lot of money. Maybe you're just being too greedy?

Im perfectly aware Im playing a losing game. Heres the thing. If I thought it was a leak in my game I would have posted hand histories for analysis. But I dont need somone to tell me that "Oh yeah, Your taking alot of bad beats". I dont call down with trash. Im ALL OVER my game. Im my own worst critic. even at 16 tables Im constatly talking myself through it. That was a good spot to bluff. Dont bet there next time. Now Im not saying Im a great player yet. But its not because Im spewing chips like a donkey.
Thanks for the post though.


^^ See above.

To answer your question. If I was playing 5/10 4 or 6 tables may do. But... Im playing $5NL as stated above. But Im thinking you may not know that means .02˘/.05˘. And Im playing 16 tables for .... yes... profitability.

Post your graph with this massive EV loss. Cut down on tables and win or continue losing. The choice is yours.

lol ok, I thought you meant 5$/10$ not .02/.05 ˘

But from the way you're typing it seems to me you are not willing to analyze your game. You think you're playing perfectly or close to it and the problem is somewhere else. With that attitude you'll never do anything in poker really.

Here's a challenge for you : Post here 20 random big (raised) pots you lost recently and let us see the errors in your game, if any. Why are you not willing to do that?

After all, if you're right and your play is fine and dandy, you'll just prove yourself right and get confirmation. If you're wrong, you might even improve...

After having read all this I think it is very likely you are playing a losing game. And the best things you could do have been well laid out in this thread.

I went through some of your hands and have to admit I saw a couple coolers. But I also saw you call a 3 bet all in against 2 players with AQo, which I think is a little loose. Others may disagree. But another time you didnt show your cards but you got raised on a board with 3 to a straight on the river and 4 bet shoved when your opponent's range most definitely included the KJ he needed to make it. In fact the two hands he had there were KJ or zippo. A call was clearly right. It is an easy mistake to make... I am willing to bet everyone here has done it.

Perhaps you are playing more tables than you are ready for. When variance hits the leaks deepen it, and tilt will flip on the after burner.

That is where, at a glance, I think you might be.

Oh.. I know how it feels when it seems like the game is rigged. But you are starting to actually entertain that thought with just a wee bit more that tongue in cheek. Stop that as soon as possible. Losses at FTP are a combination of luck and bad play. Period.

Here's to your downswing turning around!

You're seeing a lot of hands. Is your loss coming from never stealign blinds becuase you're playing so many tables?

Very agree. I analyzed my own DB a month or so ago and found that my win rate would have taken a significant rise if I had simply folded AQo every single time it was either raised before me preflop, or if I was the raiser, someone reraised me. Dangerous hand. Depending on the player I'll sometimes reraise with it pre, but I don't like it all in vs 2 other players.

RF

It's on PTR. Compared to a lot I've seen, it's really not that bad. Break even for a while, downswing, break even for a couple months, then a nice run up through late January. Then, with respect to the OP, a train wreck.

Do take this with the helpful spirit intended, OP--you really shouldn't say (paraphrasing) I'm going great, I changed one thing (moving to massive multitabling) then started losing badly, but it's not the massive multitabling that did it.

Really, it probably is. With that kind of volume, I don't even know if hand analysis is the place to start. I think you need to start at a statistical analysis of what you lose with, and why. That's what led to my discovery that I was over valuing AQo. Post stats, post hands, and I'm sure the people who can help, will. I'll try, though I know I'm not remotely the best on here.

RF

Discounting the fact that you might be on a bad run, I have to concur that you're on too many tables. 16 is a lot to track. I keep to 4 on Bodog and raise stakes as necessary, provided my play can support the move up. Have you considered another site? I always find a change of scenery to help my game.

WV wasn't asking just for the winnings graph, but also the expected value graph. This can give a better picture of ow much is runbad vs how much is playbad.

OP has abandoned his thread though?

I think he just wants to deny there is a problem with his play. If you watch this thread, he's making up arguments why not to show any hands, or stats and resists any implications something may be wrong with his game...

Post your stats for good analysis.

You cant multitable if you cant win multitabling - simple.

When yo start beating 1 table on its own, try 2, when you start to beat 2, try 3.

Rome wasnt built in a day.

Although I do agree that with this leak, you are playing too many tables. But you don't think so. So, let's look at something else.

Why don't you switch to another site to mix it up. If you are losing at 16 tables there, then you are DEFINITELY a losing player. If you're not, even if you don't get rakeback, you should still be ahead compared to how it's going now, right?

Also, at 16 tables, you are probably playing some of the same guys. Do you have any software tools to use? (I don't even know if they can be used at that level).

If you talked to Tommy Angelo, he'd probably tell you to stop for a couple of days and not to do anything involving poker. Go on a trip. Hang out with friends. THEN start fresh. Sometimes it's a mindset thing and we have to leave that mindset in order to recognize it.

Hope it helps!

I saw some things on PTR that didn't look too good. Mainly super tight/passive play pre-flop.

Oh yeah, try playing fewer tables.

Here is a side question. As a guy who defines multitabling to be 2 tables, I am wondering what you guys who really MT think is OK to mix and what isn't.

I see OP is currently mixing stakes (02 and 05), type (FR and 6max) and subtype (cap, regular, shallow, deep) on about 16 tables.

I am going to play each of these situations (without regard to stake for the most part) at least slightly differently. Is't that harder to keep up with when you are on so many tables?

I mean cap games and regular games are considerably different. And I would assume the shallow games might be similarly different, or does it not matter down at these stakes?

Still matters- at least it should.
I play a lot of deepstack 5nl, and for the most part you play a lot more hands to the flop and adjust there. You can really stack people who dont recognize that all in 200bb deep on the flop with KK is not the same as all in 100bb in the same spot. So a slightly looser preflop strategy can be very profitable since you are fighting for bigger stacks.
Shallow games should have way more shoving pre, Cap games are going to be a little looser too, or at least thats what I've seen.
I would have a hard time adjusting between table varieties like that, When you have 16 going it would be hard for me to remember which table/hands I can call with or should raise or whatever.

In short, yeah it matters even at these stakes.