Discussion: KK+ in blinds facing tight utg raise

I think this is a pretty cool topic to talk about, but don't really know if people will think the same.

The situation: A 9/8 nit opens from utg, with EP raise % of 5%, they have a general 70% fold to 3bet. Our stats are standard tag stats, say 14/12 with 3.8%3bet The table folds and your in the big blind with kings or aces, what should our action be?

I personally feel we should be flatting kings and just playing postflop and looking to extract 2 maybe 3 streets of value from JJ,QQ and A,Q.

The cool point however is what to do with Aces, your pretty sure that villain will only 4bet kk+ and will fold qq and a,k to the 3bet a huge majority of the time, so should we be flatting the raise in this spot and play postflop again or 3bet/get it in. Is the equity lost when villain has kings, made up for when you can extract postflop from jj+?

This is full ring

Yes I flat KK/AA there the heavy majority of the time. The most fun though is doing it IP and someone behind you squeezes then EP raiser folds and you can get it in and they're like omg squeeze spot and he backraised can't fold and they show up with TT .

yeah i'm almost always flatting w/ KK in that spot, virtually regardless of position. 3betting gives away your strength so much and lets them get away from a lot of the strong hands you crush

i'm more likely to 3bet AA just because it coolers more hands/way more equity and some nits will still be unwilling to fold AK especially sooted + of course few players will consider folding KK pre. but i can flat AA there also

9/8, holy poop nuggets.

You could slowplay the aces, but what do you do if your opponent raises you after the flop?!
If you did not raise before than you have to make a tough dissicion...
So raise your kings and see if he calls you!

I don't play FR, and I don't play with that image, and I don't understand all these 9/8 nits, but flatting here seems okay-ish.

I 3-bet anyways :P

what is 3betting and what is 4betting? i have become so lost with some of the terminology you guys use. I pressume its betting 3xBB and 4xBB but im probably very wrong

Read the stickies sir.

Hand Analysis Lingo & Other Poker Terms

A 3-bet is the third bet on a street. A 4-bet is the fourth.

Preflop, the first bet is the BB posting his blind.

Preflop a 3-bet is the re-raise

BB posts, UTG raises, BTN re-raises (3Bet) SB re-reraises (4-bet)

A 5-Bet is almost always a shove unless stacks are very deep.

Preflop, normal bet sizes are raise = 2.5-5BB
3-Bet = 3 x previous raise
4-Bet = 2.5 x previous raise

Post flop a 3-bet is again the third bet made.

i.e.

UTG raises, BTN re-raises, UTG re-re-raises (3bet)

Usually a post flop 3-bet = a shove

Back to the discussion.

If we flat KK, what do we do if an A shows up on the flop?

Do we bet out representing the Ace or do we CF/ C/C?

Do we fire out again on the turn hoping to fold out AJ AQ or do we call it down to SD?

Do we simply think he must have an ace and give up?

If the Ace comes on the flop.. whats the plan?

meh im probably just c/f on an ace high flop, since i expect them to check back jj,qq. We get our value from their weaker hands on low boards anyway

well the philosphy immediately pays off the first time i try it, although not in the way intended. Villain here is 12/8 with 6% open from early pos and 73% fold to 3bet

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

SB: $19.80 (39.6 bb)
Hero (BB): $59.45 (118.9 bb)
UTG+1: $72.10 (144.2 bb)
MP1: $57.40 (114.8 bb)
MP2: $28.75 (57.5 bb)
MP3: $9.05 (18.1 bb)
CO: $25 (50 bb)
BTN: $60.55 (121.1 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with K K
UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to $2, 5 folds, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) 4 J 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $3, Hero calls $3

Turn: ($10.25) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $6, MP1 calls $6

River: ($22.25) T (2 players)
Hero bets $13.50, MP1 calls $13.50

Results: $49.25 pot ($2.40 rake)
Hero showed K K (a pair of Kings) and lost (-$24.50 net)
MP1 showed A A (a pair of Aces) and won $46.85 ($22.35 net)

It's just like any other decision in poker, we need to consider all the factors. What's our opponent's range? What actions does he take? I don't like leading an A-high flop just because it's so transparent but basically the answer otherwise is it depends. If he cbets JJ/QQ or ATC there we can call at least one street. If he's nitty postflop we can possibly just ch/f. Or if we feel like it we can try to get him off AK because with a nitty opening range I doubt he has AQ or AJ and as long as the other 2 are low cards (like A53 he may have folded 33 or 55 from EP) he basically can have only one set on the board. On the other hand I've found that trying to get people to fold TPTK is not the best way to make money especially on boards like that where all we can have is a set and he could convince himself we do that with AQ/AJ. But yeah answer is it depends.