Did I screw up?

This evening I played a tournament at my local casino. I made the final table of 10 players. They paid 5 places. After a few rounds we got down to 6 players. Blinds were $4000/$8000 with $500 ante. I have a stack of 20,000 so I know I am going to have to push soon. But, there are 2 stacks shorter than I was, so I was hoping they would bust before me and I'd sneak in the money. And, for the past few hands at least one player went all-in and they were always called by one, if not two, of the big stacks.

I am UTG with Ks 9s. Given the info above, I decide to fold. Sure enough, one player goes all-in and is called by two big stacks. But, the player survived and tripled up. Turns out, I would have hit a full house, K's over 9's. RATS!!! Next hand I am in the BB and look down at pocket 9's. Two players call the BB and when it gets to me I go all-in. Of course, I get am called by two players and I busted out on the money bubble when the one big stack hits two pair with his K 4 off suit.

Should I have pushed UTG with Ks 9s? Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but I hate shoving with such a maginal hand UTG when someone else could have been the bubble boy.

You cant look at the results and question your play. Unless you can see through the back of the cards and/or predict what cards are going to hit the felt.

You have to make the best poker decisions at the right time. Your M is so low here, and you can open a pot with a K9... You have no choice but to push that.

Not because I knew the full house was coming, but because at that point you have an above average hand and are about to go into the blinds which are going to completely destroy your stack.

Odds are you arent going to see a hand as good as K9 suited next hand... and thats your last chance because you are pot commited to the next hand (Your big blind) anyway. Because you are virtually pot committed to the next hand... the other two stacks dont matter.

So yeah. You screwed up by not pushing the K9s there.

You got lucky and picked up a hand in the big blind the next hand... but now theres two limpers and they aint folding to your weak all in raise for any reason. You just dont have the bullets to scare any of these guys away and make it incorrect for them to call you.

Its too late to worry about pushing UTG with such a marginal hand as K9s. You shouldnt even think twice about pushing here. Its a no brainer.

I have been in this situation so many times

Folding K9 in UTG is a no brainer. Can't look at the results.

With 2 stacks shorter than me I would likely fold all hands except AK, AA-QQ.

I know you have to go for the victory but you have to cash before you win.

I know that others may disagree with this strategy but bubbling really sucks for me after committing so many hours to a tourney.

90% of the time if this situation occurs one of the two is going to go out before you. However if the two survive their all in and you become the short stack then you will need to expand your range significantly.

Regards.

If it would have turned out you lose the pot an go busto then you'd have questioned whether or not you should have folded. Simply no, K9 UTG is crushed by so many hands with so many players left to act behind you. Try not to be so results orientated and ensure you make the 'correct' move. Which in turn, you did do, when you were dealt 99.

I dont blame you for folding K9 there.. yes you were short stack but with 2 other shorter stacks, mathematically you should have made it in the bubble. Sad that you lost and watching that full house with k9 must of been tough... but thats poker.

I would have done the same thing... You shouldn't look at the fact that you would have hit the flop. This happens a lot, but it no excuse to play this hand, especially with the 2 short stacks. And besides, when you're down to less than 3 BB's you're gonna need a bit of luck anyway!

Wow sounds like me...I swear that happens to me all the time..shoulda coulda woulda....I would not have pushed with K9 utg...like you said there were 2 stacks smaller than you and your objective was just to cash..if you were looking to win the tourny ..maybe be aggressive there. And as always the BB pocket pair losing hand..does stink but I think you did the right thing. yankeenut23

i think folding the k9 was correct, but pushing with the 9's with two callers behind was a mistake. you pretty much know that they are going to call from the information you gave us, and they are very likely to have at least 2 overcards if not more. there was still one short stack left so waiting for him to get knocked out seems to be a better option (unless a better situation for pushing comes up for you).

But you only have one more hand to see!

How do you fold ANY king in that situation?

The big blind is going to take 8500 of your 20,000! Thats gonna make you pot commited to the next hand regardless of what it is.

Say you fold K-9 suited there and then get 2-4 the next hand in the big blind. And you fold again. So now you have 11,500 going into the small blind. And you get another sub par hand something like 6-J. So you fold again. Now you have 7000 chips and wont even MAKE it to the next small blind.

I dont think you can let yourself just get blinded out here. UTG or not. With my M that small I'm going to push that K9 suited every single time I possibly can. Not to mention you're six handed!

From a math perspective... how can you possibly fold that K9 IN THAT SITUATION!?!? What you guys are saying is that you will let your stack deteriorate into the point in which you are absolutely and completely irrelevant and I just dont play poker like that.

I would love to play with players that will fold that good of a hand with no chips left and basically eliminate themselves from the tournament at a short handed final table. Thats not only weak tight... thats just weak.

And one person says they'd fold 9s getting 3-1 at least on their chips in the big blind the hand after! What hand are you looking for considering you are only going to see 6 more hands at all?

I'm gonna go with the majority here, and say that folding K9 was the right move. Those 2 shortstacks change the complexion of the game greatly. Are you going to win the tournament if you shut it down at this point? Probably not, but you stand a very good chance of cashing. And with 2 shortstacks, you can even find yourself with fourth place money.

Regardless of the outcome, you would have most likely got your money in as an underdog with K9, and that's a bad move when you are in a position to fold into the money.

no you did not screw up folding k-9 was a good choice because one of the short stacks went all in and if he didn't hit what he wanted u would have cashed so it was a really good fold but u justgot unlucky that the full house came and u weren't in the pot. how many people were in this tourney and congrats on lasting that long

I did make one mistake in my original post...the antes were $1000, not $500.

I have been thinking about this all day today, especially after reading Cobryn's reply this morning, as I very much respect his posts on the board.

My goal going into the tournament was to make the final table. I played this same weekday evening tournament during much of the summer and busted out within site of the final table several times...once in 11th place when I flopped a straight and and a guy sucked out on me by hitting a full house on the river...and another time when I flopped an open end straight flush draw and 3 other players were all-in in front of me...a chance to quadruple up with 15 out twice and I missed them all! So, making the final table was my first goal.

Once I made the final table, then my goal was to make the money. With three big stacks, miracle cards would be necessary to win. And, with several other short stacks, which were not shy about going all-in or calling when pushed all-in by the thre big stacks, I figured that I would wait as long as I could for a premium hand. I did manage to increase my stack by 50% one time with A K of spades against two of the big stacks. One of them also had A K and we chopped, which kept me alive a while longer.

Then, came the K 9 suited hand. K 9 suited UTG was not what I wanted to stake my tournament life on, especially with two other stacks shorter than I was. Regardless of the fact I would have hit a boat, I still think folding K 9 suited was a good idea...only because of those other two short stacks. Yes, I was trying to fold my way into the money. That may not be very honorable, but cashing would have really boosted my confidence.

But, once I got the pocket 9's, I figured that was good enough to push. I knew that at least one of the big stacks would call, but I hoped I was at least racing. And, as it turned out, I was a favorite against the K 4 offsuit that ended up knocking me out, as well as the J 7 off suit that the other big stack caller held. I can atleast I got my money in good.

The other option would have bene to fold the pocket 9's and be left with 12,000 in chips. I would have had to pay $5000 on the next hand...$1000 ante plus $4000 SB. If I would have folded that hand, I could have paid the antes for 7 more hands. Being blinded out (what Doyle calls going out like Broomcorn's Uncle) is not very smart, but within those 7 hands someone else might have busted out. Of course, I'll never know that now.

I am still uncertain if I made the right play or the wrong play. Next time, I could go all-in with the same hand and get busted with it. Or, I could try to fold my way to the money and get blinded out on the bubble. I'm just not certain if there is always an optimal play in this situation.

Thanks for the input and please keep your feedback coming!

Ok I play alot different then most (I play passive at first and then aggressive later on). Now here's the thing, first thing first, you have to ask yourself is, would these big stacks have folded if you pushed with your k9s, since it's only 2.5x the BB, would the big stacks have folded? Then ask yourself, would the bLinds have folded since they were commited? Now take all that into consideration, and I think you made an excellent fold, regardless of the outcome of the hand

I guess that I'm in the very small minority here. And thats ok.

Considering that you can possibly fold into the money is the key factor in the hand. But knowing that I'm going into the big blind and putting exactly 8000 of my 20,000 chips in the next hand I'm pushing the K9 suited, especially after hearing the garbage the two big stacks were willing to call with.

If the blinds are playing with the same attitude you are, you could possibly see both of them fold... and get your money in 3 or 4 to 1 as the favorite here.

Sorry you got unlucky in the hand after... and congrats for doing so well in the tournament.

Regardless of whether you push the K9s or fold it, you had to know that was going to be the pivotal hand of the tourney for you.

Because if you fold and the short stacks survive then you are the short stack. If you push and lose, you are out. If you fold and the short stack loses you are in the money. If you push and win, you are in the money. Personally, I like to be the aggressor and go down swinging, also you have "first in vigourish", see Harrington on Hold 'em series for what that means.

It's 50/50 whether you survive or not regardless of your decision. It sucks that you pick up 99 the very next hand and are busted by a rag hand. I am sure it wasn't much more for him to call you though.

Next goal: Go into the final table with a healthy stack.

Your flush draw with both big stax calling gives +EV for ANY bet amount (34.97% > 33.3% required) but unfortunately it would take 3 tourneys to see it pay!

Or, if you figure a single paired king also wins since the Bigs are calling with junk, then you could convince yourself it's a ~45% chance (12 outs). So not quite 50/50. Good enough for a last gasp ALL-IN?

-Ben "I'm new" Dover

What king of tourny is it? Hyper Turbo? 2 shorter stacks then 20k when the blinds are 4-8k?

K9 sooted UTG with 2 shorter stacks to the bubble? Easy fold.
99 in the BB? I would have just checked the option with three callers. Too many ranges that can beat it out there. Granted, its a made hand, but I would not have pushed until post-flop.

Dufferdevon: Yes, I knew it was a pivotal hand...especially afterwards when I saw the full house I would have made! That would have made me third in chips. But, as previously said, I can't judge that fold by the results...but it would have been sweet!

I knew the 99 hand was key...either I win or I'm gone. But, I got my money in good, even though the outcome sucked. Geez...if I had just played the two hands differently! Can't worry about that or I'd go crazy.

I desire Love: The blinds were 12 minutes...pretty quick and by this point the tournament had been going on for over 3 hours, inlcuding a couple 10 minute breaks.

arahal jazz: In a couple previous tournaments like this I waited to shove until after the flop and got busted. So, I figured that I better push now. If I didn't push, saw the flop and then checked the flop, one of the big stacks was sure to bet. Unless I hit a set I would be faced with the same decision then as now, so I shoved.

Cobryn: Thanks again for your comments. I am going to play another one of these Friday afternoon. Hopefully, I can get tot he final table with a bigger stack!

Please keep any additional comments coming.

Folding K-9s UTG is normally something one should do, but given your stack-size I could argue for a push here, because you are extremely short, and will be dead in six hands when you post BB the next time unless you take down a pot. Also, you are losing more than half your stack in two hands, how big is your chance to get a better hand in any of these two? If you push UTG, you may also represent a monster (depending on your image), which means that you have the chance to take down the pot uncontested. With this said, I'd have called under the given circumstances.

I think this is one of those marginal situations where either play could be deemed right or wrong depending on the outcome. If you shoved with the K9 then hit the full house then your play would obviously have been correct, however if you folded like you did and shoved with your 99 and it help up (which it never) then that would also have been a correct play, hindsight is a great thing!

You made the right play.Top 5 pay with only 6 players left and 2 players with shorter stacks than you.Folding K 9 is the right thing to do,If you have pushed with it and lost,you would be kicking yourself in the ass for pushing all in with K 9 at least when you pushed with 99 you had a hand to push with and got unlucky that k 4 beat you.

Ok, how about if we add something to this and get some opinions on what range in that situation you are going to push with?

If K9 suited is too weak... what hand are you pushing with?

Or... are you so commited to getting into the money with the other two stacks short as well... are you folding almost any hand here?

i would have called to see the flop. If I still had high pair after the flop, and the board didn't look like anyone hit, then I would have gone all-in. If the flop showed paint cards, I would have just called and folded to any bet.

Cobryn: Interesting question...maybe we can all benefit by debating that issue and hopefully I can learn something from it.

With 2 1/2 BB's left and two stacks shorter than me, I would have shoved UTG with A 10 or better or a pair of 8's or better. Any pair lower than 8's or a suited KQ, KJ, and K 10 are still marginal, but more tempting than K 9 suited.

He has 3 BB left. Are you trying to say calling off a 1/3 of his stack UTG with K9 is the correct play ? Then fold if it shows paint cards ? Is paint cards not what you want to see ? I really dont understand this ? Im really Confused? Please help me ? Explain ?

RJB-7: I think what they mean is with the pocket 9's, just call the flop and see what it looks like.

I feel that play was just fine. Hind site is 20-20. I was in a tourney in AC on MOnday and busted out playin UTG K-10 suited when the flop gave me 4 to the str8t and flush. I was SS like you and got seduced to draw. NO LOVE to the river and I busted losing to ONE PAIR. Your hand was even weaker although you did hit after folding. THis will happen again in our poker careers. UTG SS, I have determined I need a pair or Ace-paint min. But I've been WD-40 tight lately...until that hand. Of course what I need and get are two different things. FAGITABOUTIT. Your play probably will get you further next time.
Peace,
FLOW

If you play this tournament often, you are better off playing your short stack aggressively UTG than waiting for the BB, when there will be less dead money in the pot. Once you're in the top 3, where most of the prize money is, then you can pass on some decent situations in hopes that someone else goes out first. Over the long run, you'll do better giving yourself a chance to win the tournament, rather than just getting a little more than your buy-in back. Your first-in vigorish will help with the K-9s, and your opponents will assume you wouldn't want to go out on the bubble, so they would give you credit for a better hand. Since they are probably folding anyway, it doesn't make any difference what comes on the flop, since there won't be one. It's pointless to be sad about any flop after you folded. If folding is the right choice, then it's the right choice no matter what comes. In this case, though, K-9s is good enough to push when your M is so low and the BB is coming next.

That all said, personally, I'm really bad about trying to make it in the money and getting blinded off. I'm trying to change that bad habit.

I'm with Cobryn on this one. UTG w/20000, K9 suited is not great, but it's not bad either. You have top pair possibilities, Straight possibility (just 1) and flush possibilities. And if you wait, through the blinds w/antes your down to 7000, which is pretty much nothing.

doh - you don't have a flush draw yet. *Preflop* with suited cards only gets a ~6% chance of completing the flush. I'm still new.

What are the chances of any hand improvement?

(If you assume even 9s would win against the two weak handed big stacks calling. A quick google wasn't obvious as most odds deal with completing to a specific hand. Does it approach 33%? I might figure it out for fun...)

If you think KK top pair would win then the math to complete the hand says:

27.6% = KK, KKK, or KKKK
6.4% = flush

That's 34% chance! A proper play w/ two callers!?

(and doesn't even count trip 9s, straights or better)

maybe in a cash game, but this is a tournament, and therefore it is more than just "proper plays." there are many more variables that need to be considered...

that's kindof my point: you can justify any move with the right math ;->

I would have just called with 99 and saw a flop. Then you can make your move. if a 10 or higher hits the board then you cant play but if 9 or lower hits then you move all in. The other guys would most likely fold unless they were slow playing a huge pp which I doubt. If you fold you still have 12000 chips which is alot seeing how it sounds like everyone else were shortstakced compared to the blind size. Bad break though. But I always like to call with my low to mid pp and see the flop.