I'll start it again then shall I?

I didn't really know what to do here. It's a WA/WB situation I guess, but I didn't know what to do because there were two villains rather than one. What do you reckon is the best play?

PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($12.55)
Button ($2.86)
SB ($6.53)
Hero (BB) ($7.74)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K
UTG bets $0.15, 1 fold, SB calls $0.13, Hero raises to $0.50, UTG calls $0.35, SB calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.50) 7, 8, A (3 players)
SB checks,

Hero

Id bet and if get reraised fold, maybe give up on the turn if just called,depends on villians stats also.

UTG is 18/14, 6% 3bet, 70% Foldto3bet, 46% AfQ (250 hands)
SB is 13/4, 0% 3bet, 50% Foldto3bet, 46& AfQ (190 hands)

ye thats a tuff one,I think alot of the time he'll have some A hand.flop bet and then check/fold turn if called?

I probably try to play as small a pot as possible. I would check back the flop. These guys have AK/Q or bigger pairs 99-AA so the pot should only get big if they have an A.

Raise to .60 pre then ch/f like a boss.

I make it .75 preflop. Don't cbet.

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

I make it .75 preflop. Don't cbet.

That's a huge 3bet! I usually just go for 3-4X the original raise.

So, in general, I should make larger 3bets if more than one villain is involved? Or is it because I have KK and want to make them pay to try and flop an A? I mean, what if I had AA instead?

Well so far the've folded to 3bets 70% and 50% but I bet if you looked at UTG's fold to 3bet from UTG it would be way lower. You're getting value from a bigger 3bet, yours is way too low, mine is perhaps a little low, WV likes money. Has nothing to do with your exact hand (KK).

Slightly off topic but when you make a decision and perform an action there's a reason behind it, or should be. We have KK and want to extract value, you look at the best way to do this which is a 3bet. Then we decide on a bet size that generates the most value, with these opponents it's way bigger than .50. And most villains at 5nl.

Originally Posted by micromachine

That's a huge 3bet! I usually just go for 3-4X the original raise.

So, in general, I should make larger 3bets if more than one villain is involved? Or is it because I have KK and want to make them pay to try and flop an A? I mean, what if I had AA instead?

In this hand bigger is better for a few reasons.
1) the original raiser was UTG so his range is stronger and he's more likely to put a lot in preflop.
2) there was someone who flatted which means the pot is bigger and they're often the ones to do stupid things like shove over a perceived squeeze with small pairs
3) we're going to be OOP if the original raiser calls and I always bet bigger when that will be the case.

So my 3bet size would be 60 cents without the small blind calling (4x the open size) but I'd basically add the amount of the call to my raise size once the SB calls.

Thanks guys that ^^ is very useful, I wouldn't have considered all those things!

One more question: if in the hand above we had A4s and were 3 betting/squeezing as bluff, should the 3bet size change or should it be the same to make it seem like we have a premium hand.

Thoughts is this a spew?Or is this line with this villain ok?

Merge $4.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 1540784
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $4.12 18\15-135 hands
SB: $5.72 25\19 3bet 12%-squeeze 27%-270 hands
BB: $12.54
UTG: $1.96
Hero (CO): $9.59

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero is CO with J ♦ K ♠
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.12, BTN calls $0.12, SB raises to $0.52, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.44

You can make it smaller if you're squeezing (I'd still do 55 or 60) because honestly no one is really paying attention to your bet sizing in spots like this so you really don't have to worry about giving anything away.

Originally Posted by micromachine

Thanks guys that ^^ is very useful, I wouldn't have considered all those things!

One more question: if in the hand above we had A4s and were 3 betting/squeezing as bluff, should the 3bet size change or should it be the same to make it seem like we have a premium hand.

With a 18\14 UTG raiseing i prob just fold A4s

3bet bluff the CO more than UTG his range is weaker and more likely to fold, the result we want.

I'm ok with it Joe, good spot and decent hand imo.

Originally Posted by JOEBOB69

Thoughts is this a spew?Or is this line with this villain ok?

Merge $4.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 1540784
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $4.12 18\15-135 hands
SB: $5.72 25\19 3bet 12%-squeeze 27%-270 hands
BB: $12.54
UTG: $1.96
Hero (CO): $9.59

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero is CO with J ♦ K ♠
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.12, BTN calls $0.12, SB raises to $0.52, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.44

Brave move, seems OK given the high 3bet stat.
I've never looked at a villains squeeze stat before so I don't know if that is high or not?
Just checking - you are folding if he jams, right?

Originally Posted by micromachine

Brave move, seems OK given the high 3bet stat.
I've never looked at a villains squeeze stat before if i were you i would put it on my HUDso I don't know if that is high or not?
Just checking - you are folding if he jams, right?call a +100bb 5bet shove with KJo what you think?

Obv i fold to a jam.Tricky part is what do i do if he flats range has to be JJ+

His squeeze stat won't have converged too much by now (not enough hands) but his 3bet is reliable especially combined with his VPIP/PFR. He's definately 3betting wide and people tend to 3bet more from the blinds.

i think you can go smaller to like 1.30ish ?

Originally Posted by JOEBOB69

Obv i fold to a jam.Tricky part is what do i do if he flats range has to be JJ+

Obv shouldve thought about that before you 4bet. I think I'd be much more likely to be 4bet shoving a hand like A5s and of course my big hands

Originally Posted by Jurn8

i think you can go smaller to like 1.30ish ?

Yea if we are 4 betting light against this type of player, who has such a high %, we need to be doing it smaller.

i think you still continue bet there and then just play poker ... 1/3 pot continue bet probably accomplishes same as 1/2 ... i've been experimenting with betting smaller with mixed results, but overall i think it's working out ... 1/3 can look both weak and strong, so you are probably not giving away much info


maybe a larger 3 bet as some have suggested, but obviously with KK you want some action ... 1 caller would have been ideal, but still you would have to be worried about the same kinda hands ... AA, AK, AQ, well you know ... never fun when A comes out vs. your pocket KKs ... .check calling is also not terrible there ... as an attempt to control the pot size ... more of a math approach


ha, maybe that is what's wrong with my cash game! ... firing bullets is fun, but when A-anything is just going to blindly call you down there without a single worry of being up against a better A or trips


i guess we'll get to see how it all played out!

Originally Posted by bgomez89

Obv shouldve thought about that before you 4bet. I think I'd be much more likely to be 4bet shoving a hand like A5s and of course my big hands

I did, if he flats my 4bet his range looks like JJ+ i would believe he would shove AK here.

Originally Posted by fugitive67

i guess we'll get to see how it all played out!

In my KK hand I c-bet 1/2 pot and they both folded

It used to be paired flops were very good to cbet with,example 885 etc.Last few months it seems to be a trend to raise-c\r these flops vs a cbet.I'm seeing it a lot with all sort of villains tags\lags but mostly regs.So my question is how do we combat this?Cbet less an just give up on flops seems week to me but idk.

just 'scribin..............

Originally Posted by JOEBOB69

It used to be paired flops were very good to cbet with,example 885 etc.Last few months it seems to be a trend to raise-c\r these flops vs a cbet.I'm seeing it a lot with all sort of villains tags\lags but mostly regs.So my question is how do we combat this?Cbet less an just give up on flops seems week to me but idk.

If it really is happening enough not to make the cbet profitable then maybe you should avoid cbetting these flops (vs these regs at least) until you have identified exactly who is doing it. On the plus side, when you do flop trips you can shove it back in their faces!

I'm still trying to decide how to set-up my HUD.

At the moment I have something quite simple, just one line:

(hands), VPIP, PFR, AfQ, 3bet, Foldto3bet

But I want to add more. I'm thinking of adding as new lines:

FlopC-bet, FoldtoFlopC-bet, FoldtoTurnC-bet, Steal%
new line
WTSD, W$SD

Are there any others I am missing?
How can I use these new stats? Like what are exploitable values etc?
How long does each one take to converge?
Is there a better way to organise the HUD?

Thanks, and sorry for so many questions!

I've just installed HM2, so I'm also reviewing my HUD. Not sure where to go at the moment, but I think I'll be putting a bit more of it in the popups (for example, vs Hero stats and all the by street stuff).

Yours is looking good, but you might consider adding Turn cbet to it? This can be especially useful when looking for floating opportunities. Extreme example of fit or fold weak tight reg: Fcbet = 85%, Tcbet = 33%. Similar to the way you look to double barrel those with a low FoldtoFcbet but high FoldtoTcbet.

EDIT: also where's your FBB or FTS stat?

FBB = Fold big blind??
FTS = Fold to steal??

Are these not kind-of covered by the VPIP/PFR ratio (how likely they are to call) and the 3bet% (how likely they are to reraise)?

Yeah turn c-bet could be good..

It's really hard to decide on the organization of it and what to put on each line!

(hands), VPIP, PFR, AfQ, steal%
3bet, foldto3bet, FlopCbet, foldtoFlopCbet
TurnCbet, foldtoTurnCbet, WTSD, W$SD

...might work, then we deal with the turn onwards on the third line only.

How many hands would you say it takes for line 3 stats to converge?

FBB/FTS is more positional than just looking at the differences between VPIP and PFR in conjunction with how often they 3bet in total. Also I tend to look at tendencies by street a LOT in the pop ups. Someone may flat a tonne on the button but fold almost always OOP. 3bet% I'm the same, some weird positional tendencies show up when you look at it by street. So as a rough and ready guide to how successful your steal will be I just have FBB showing on the HUD.

Spose it's similar to why we have ATS on the HUD. They may be running 22/19 but have an ATS of 48, which means (logically) they are opening a LOT tighter UTG than from the CO/BTN.

As for convergence, I dunno, but I tend to start paying more attention to those line 3 stats when I play against regs.

OK well decided to go for this setup in the end:

(hands), VPIP, PFR, AfQ, steal%
3bet, foldto3bet, FlopCbet, foldtoFlopCbet
TurnCbet, foldtoTurnCbet, WTSD, W$SD

And here is how it looks on the screen, seems good now I reduced all the font sizes to 9 rather than 10.

As for convergence, I think the middle line stats take a few hundred hands and the third line stats prob take a few thousand hands cos I have 300 hands on some where the TurnCbet is still N/A (0/0).

Screen shot 2011-12-09 at 9.17.53 AM.jpg (http://www.cardschat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41325&d=1323426033)

This happened to me twice last night ffs (losing with best FH vs quads).

Should I have just called the 0.85 river bet??

The villain was 42/6 over 80 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($8.61)
MP ($4.27)
Hero (Button) ($6.73)
SB ($5)
BB ($6.42)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, K
UTG calls $0.05, MP calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.25, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.62) 10, J, K (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.59, UTG raises to $1.18, Hero calls $0.59

Turn: ($2.98) 10 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.98) 10 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.85, Hero raises to $3.12, UTG raises to $5.39, Hero calls $2.18 (All-In)

Total pot: $13.58 | Rake: $0.67

Results:
Hero had A, K (full house, tens over Kings).
UTG had J, 10 (four of a kind, tens).
Outcome: UTG won $12.91