Deb's Determined Discovery of Poker

I'm a casual player. Have a full-time job and a full-time family. So I don't play a ton of hands. What I do have is a desire to be a better poker player, an ability to not take myself too seriously, and a willingness to study, learn, and apply what I'm learning. (OK, so I have this fantasy of the day when online poker is an easy thing for USA players and then being able to support myself during retirement playing poker.)

I want to ask you for help with finding leaks in my game and suggestions for how to improve what I'm doing. My immediate goals are to be a steady winner at 4NL and to be able to move up to 10NL.

I'm currently playing 4NL 6max on Merge (with too many losing forays into 10NL when I get that stupid thinking of "if I can make money on 4NL, I can make even more on 10NL without changing how I play").

So this won't be a grinder cash thread. More like a helping a casual player improve thread. All questions welcome.

For a start, I've attached my stats for review. First is all games played since June 2011. Second is games played since December 2011 when I've been changing some of the way I play (mostly based on Crushing the Microstakes by BlackRain79).

And thank you in advance.

Attached Images

6 max stats since 06-11.jpg (33.1 KB, 134 views)

6 max stats since 12-11.jpg (30.3 KB, 134 views)

Can you post stats by position?You need to tightien up the gap between PFR and VP$IP,couldn't hurt to play a little loser widen up your starting hands.
The only thing that realy leaps out at me is your some what small cbet % and your fold to cbet %

My stats (since October) by position.

Attached Images

Oct stats by position.jpg (42.9 KB, 133 views)

I don't have much experience 6 handed cash. Is 20% WP$IP too low? Also should W$SD be 60-70%?

Why 6 handed instead of 10 handed?

A VPIP of around 20% is solid if it varies by position. W$SD should be around 50% depending on style.


Deb, an immediate thing that jumps out is the gap between VPIP and PFR, it's too wide. You should never be limping in to the pot, any gap should come from calling other peoples PF raises, for various reasons. If you're not limping then you're probably calling too many raises with hands you shouldn't.

You seem positionally aware which is good but I think you could call more SB raises when you're in the BB as you'll have position against them.


The best advice I can give is to always ask why. Why are you raising this hand now, why are you calling, what specific mistake are you taking advantage of from your specific opponent. If you think right and make decisions for a reason then stats will follow.

and completing the small blind too often by the looks of it...

as for calling raises I try to follow advice WVH gave me and only cold-call pre-flop with AQ, to setmine, or with SCs when the odds are good (ie 2 or more players in the pot already)...easy to remember good advice imo

Likely. You should only ever really play the SB if you're raising, being out of position is incredibly -EV (compared to being in position), even if you flop a set it's very difficult to get the money in.

actually VPIP and PFR are too high in the SB, so you should tighten up your SB range I think

Does posting the blinds in BB and SB count towards VPIP?

No.

then looks like playing from BB and SB way too much.

Ok, haven't played Cash games in ages, but I'll take a shot. Also, when I did play cash it was mainly FR not 6-max, so yeah, I'm pretty much as unqualified as you can get in this area .

Anyway, I see that you've narrowed your VPIP/PFR gap from the first set of stats to the second, good, keep working on that. The other thing that leaps out at me is that you're playing nearly as much from the SB as from the BTN, surely this can't be good.

Also, I recall that you said your working with Blackrain's book. Isn't this geared more to FR than 6-max? Don't know, haven't read it, but I seem to recall that's the case. Not saying there still won't be useful stuff in there, but may have to be tweaked for 6-max play.

Anyway, just my .02

Hmmm, I might be opening too much in the SB, 19/16 for -26bb/100 over 3825 hands. That's far from terrible, a good winner probs has a wr around -20bb/100.

Small sample ldo.

You are right about the book being written about FR play. But the concepts aren't really all that different and solid play is solid regardless of the ring size. To quote Nathan about how a 6max player can get benefit from the concepts: "It just means that [they] will have to adjust their numbers and ranges a bit.... All a 6max game really is, is a full ring game minus the first three seats."

6max players need to steal more and play better in the blinds too as they pay them more often.

Can we talk about SB play for a little bit? Here are my stats from all hands in the SB and then the ones I've played in the SB. This is from December 1st (so my "later phase" of play). NOTE: The stats lines are reversed from one screenie to the next. First one has 4NL and then 10NL. Second one is in reverse order (hmmm).

I'm going to find some HHs to see if I can isolate how to improve my SB play.

Attached Images

All SB opportunities.jpg (32.3 KB, 100 views)

SB play 12-11.jpg (29.6 KB, 100 views)

How can you be playing so much tighter from the BB than the SB???
Are you ever just checking in the BB if it folds to the SB and he just completes?? If so, don't.
Are you folding the BB too often to a steal from the SB? If so, don't (mix in more calls and lighter 3bets).
Are you ever just limping along from the SB? If so don't unless you have no steal equity and you have high implied odds postflop (read: rarely).

I was looking at your fold to 3 bet, anyone with HUD is gonna steal from you, you have adjusted but you are still folding 75% in the 10NL so giving 3 to 4 bluff odds. Also you have a 100% VPIP playing from the worst position.

Your Vpip from SB is 21 or 22, it is 28 from BTN. In fact your SB Vpip is the highest of any position except for from the button. Look at it this way, from the button you're always going to be IP, from the SB you're always going to be OOP, so you need to be more selective in the hands you are playing since it is harder to be profitable while constantly playing OOP.

In reality, you will never be profitable from the SB over a large sample-size. You're really just trying to mitigate your losses. Just tighten-up your standards for play from the SB. CAUTION FR-CENTRIC ADVICE --- MAY NOT APPLY TO 6-MAX (DON'T KNOW) but when I was just trying to get the hang of things at FR I was advised to have roughly the same standards of whether to play a hand from the SB as you would if you had the same hand UTG (assuming there are MP/LP raisers who will have position on you.) Now if its just BvB, that's a different story. But if you're SB and a couple players have entered the pot already and will have position on you, be VERY tight in hand selection.

Potluck,
The second graph shows 100% VPIP because I filtered for that to show the stats I have when I play a hand from the SB. By definition that is going to be 100% VPIP.

ok then my mistake, thought that was really strange

I'm not sure how to set my stats to indicate that it is the SB that is completing and nobody else in the hand. When I am in the BB, I am checking about 88% of the time that it is limped around.

My stats of how I'm playing the BB when facing a steal are below. I'm folding 65-70% of the time.

My "since December" stats show 51 hands where there were callers behind and I limped in. Mostly speculative hands: suited connectors and Ax hands. This doesn't seem like a lot. Is it?

When it folds around to me in the SB, I fold about 60% of the time. And, if I'm reading my stats correctly, I'm pretty much always raising if I'm not folding.

Worth noting that if there is a very tight player in the BB (with a high Fold BB to Steal stat) and it is folded to me in the SB, I tend to raise from the SB loosely since they fold so often.

Of those times that I've raised from the SB, if the BB 3bets, my stats show I am folding 87.5% of the time when playing 10NL and 60% in 4NL

Ok. Here is a situation and you tell me how you'd play it.

You're in the BB with 85o and it's folded to a 30/10 player in the SB and he calls. You?

a) Raise about 3x since I'll have position over a weak player and this profile player will often fold if they don't hit the flop (and most players don't hit the flop most of the time). And if they had a really strong hand they would raise.

b) Check because raising doesn't usually put a passive player off their hand and then even though I'll be in position I'll be IP with a very marginal hand. And raising just means putting more money into the pot when it is unlikely I could win at showdown.

I'm thinking that A is the correct answer. Looking over my stats and trying to be honest, I do B much more often.

How would you interpret this situation if the SB was a very tight player or a solid reg? Or maybe it is more accurate to say a player with very little difference between their VPIP and PFR? Would you assume they were trapping? Does that really happen that often at microstakes?

A solid reg would never complete the SB HU vs the BB. People that do it are bad players who don't have a hand they want to play for a raise and we have position HU. We want them to either fold or we can can get them to put more money in the pot when we have position and initiative. Always raise them when they complete, do it with 72o.

I don't care who it is. If someone open limps in the SB, I raise. I make it 4x the BB 100% of the time. Some players fold pre and the ones that don't play poorly OOP postflop. Win-Win.

Progress report: I have fully embraced this approach and this is pure gold. It rarely goes beyond my raise. If it does, I'm still winning on the flop more than 60% of the time.

Thank you, WVH. Seems obvious but I was overlooking this aspect of my game. Impressive how one small change can be so significant.

Another lesson I'm having a harder time applying:

Especially when playing against loose/passive players, a single pair (or even a two-pair hand) is rarely good when these types of players make big river bets.

My lesson is that I have to learn to let go of marginal hands sooner. I seem to stick with them longer than I should.

An interesting graphic, which I think highlights this better than any hand history, shows my hands that I've gone to showdown with since October and how I've fared (I'm beta testing PokerTracker 4 and the chart is from that).

Attached Images

WSD Hands.jpg (66.1 KB, 56 views)

It's standard to lose with 1 pair hands but yeah in general when the passive fish raises, fold no matter how good the price.

Oh and glad to hear that my tip helped out.

Along with looking at how to adjust your play to be more successful, it may be beneficial to work on the mental / emotional side of your game. For example, blackrain's style is more aggressive than yours. Some people can adapt in this regard more easily than others. I'm talking not just about being more aggressive but also about requiring less time to reach a decent comfort level being more aggressive than before.

I found it worked better for me to focus on ramping up my aggression in one or two situations at a time, not across the board. BB vs limp from the SB is a good example that you seem to be working on. Another one that can come up relatively often and thus may be worth prioritizing is isolating limpers.

I was looking at your two pair hands, is it possible to seperate pocket pair with paired board, board pairing both hole cards and 1 card in the hole paired with a paired board in PT4? I am betting that one of each hole card pairing is winning far more than the other combos in which you are losing to trips or better.

You can do this by adding a starting hands filter. Just look at hands where you started with a pocket pair and the final result was 2 pair. Subtract that from the number listed above to get the figure for making 2 pair with unpaired starters.

I'm thinking your sample size is a little too small..50,000 hands is generally considered a starting point and most coaches would like to see 100,000 hands to truly give you the best assessment. I am not the guy who is qualified to review your stats. I submitted a hand history that was a little over 100,000 hands to Poker Table Ratings and they gave me an A-, I was pysched...I than submitted all that to a coach at DragTheBar and was told that my grade was a too high and told me why, he than dissected my all my stats and gave me a clear picture of what I needed to do and what my grade really was..I was less pysched but I had good info on which to improve my game. The thing is everybody will try to give you good info, some will give you great info and some will not. You are serious about improving no doubt about and this site is terrific but seek out the help of a professional coach and that will give you the best assessment and a solid pathway to improving...good luck.

There is only so much we can tell from stats. Posting hands for analysis would be of good use. Try not to just pick big hands you lost.

What little I can see from the stats is overall they're pretty solid.
The Vpip/PFR gap icould do with closing. Flat a little less. I honestly think you can crush 4NL flatting no worse than KQ/AQ/AJ/22+. It's an extreme example but I feel most players would benefit from it rather than calling with Axs or any SC from the button or CO.

I would also reduce your SB stealing range in favour of increasing your button and CO steals. You should also be looking to raise your stealing in total.

Your fold to c-bet is a little low, there are many excusable reasons for this but none of which are really necessary for 4NL. It's likely these marginal hands causing this.

All of this other than the blind advise and large vpip/pfr is guesswork at likely errors. Post hands or focus on individual elements of your game in strategy threads. i.e your 3bet ranges or a hand were your decision to call the flop was borderline for you, was it considered border line by other players? Alter your calling range based on the consensus of the players you trust.

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Deco. I've been taking notes on various concepts so that I could post some concept threads here. Takes me a little while since I don't have that many hours per week to devote to poker.

I really appreciate the feedback I'm getting, I do seriously take advice from players I trust/respect, and I will be posting more to get some discussions started that will hopefully help other players as well as myself.

Hoping to post something with substance this weekend.