c-bet or no c-bet that is the question!

Would you routinely c-bet every flop?

If not what influences your decision?

A dry flop vs wet.

Would you c-bet a multiway pot?

Would you be overly concerned with PT3 stats? (For this I would like to assume that there are at most 50 hands played at this point)

I c-bet ~65% of flops. Dryer flops are better. I c-bet in multi-way pots, just not quite as often, and yes your opponent's stats are quite important (fold to c-bet % specifically).

You can't do anything 100% of the time because your more observant opponents will pick you apart. If you're going to bet flops when you hit then you're going to have to bet some flops when you miss. Like c9h13no3 said, you should probably cbet 65-70% of the time.

If I can't get a better hand to fold then I'll tend to check. Say I raised w/ KQ and flop 234. What better hands will fold when I bet? But if the flop were A83 a cbet could get a hand as good as JJ to fold.

I might be off base on this next bit but... I think scary boards are just as likely to scare opponents. So, I'll tend to bet more on wet flops.

My dad and I were recently playing in a live game and he checked a J82 (all hearts) flop after a pre-flop raise against 2 opponents. I asked him why and he said, "Someone could have flopped a flush."

Oh, and the tighter you play, the higher your c-bet % should probably be (since you have a hand worth c-betting more often). I'm fairly loose when I play 6-max, so if you're a full ring guy running at like 12/10, then you should be c-betting quite frequently.

c-bet more in position than out

this is the opposite of right

Werd, I c-bet lots of middle pairs & draws OOP that I would normally check back in position. Its just too hard to see a cheap showdown OOP, so I generally just turn them into semi-bluffs against most opponents.

it's not weird, he's just wrong

and

could you each explain the reasoning behind the proposition, Id like to gain more insite

Werd =/= Weird

Werd

oops

[ ] i can read

c9 explained the most central reason, basically

vanq, do you wanna explain your statement plz

idk for example i cbet in position a lot more than out of position because people never reverse float?

i think? i'm not sure. i'm bad at poker. but i don't usually c-bet AK OOP when i don't hit for example, whereas i almost always do in position.

but there are tons of spots IP where betting AK is just folding out worse and getting called by better, you have SD value, and you can check it behind (with some frequency, not all the time). if you check it OOP, what are you planning to do when you likely have the best hand and they make the very probable bet? make some weird c/r? keep calling down? in position you control whether money goes in on the first street, so you only have to calldown 2 streets at most. and often they'll check the turn too so your options are even better. OOP you really want to end the hand early if you can, define their range, make it as easy to play as possible, all of which favors c-betting

i realize i meant to say as a bluff i think

I've been watching this thread with much enthusiasm, as I also struggle with this, probably my biggest hole in the game of HE. I'd imagine a lot has to do with position, but no matter where you are, that do you do when you've preflopped AQ, and the flop indubitably brings 852 rainbow, and eveyone knows you didn't hit? Pretend you have a pair like JJ? What if you're in late position, and someone hits A8 (or not) and bets out? What of you're in EP? Do you bet anyway and how much? THIS is how I've gotten burned. Let's face it, even if you've gotten burned (let's say AQ, and KT3 hits), what do you do? C-bet and hope to fool everyone who called? Yikes! From what I've read, they say you should almost ALWAYS c-bet, but sometimes, I can't bring myself to do it. Do you min-raise and see what happens? Yikes again. This tells all you didn't hit, and what if someone just 'calls'? Oh no. Good raise and called? Double 'oh no'.

How do they know that? X-ray goggles?

This is a great question, and something I struggle with as well. I am a pretty tight player, so I find myself c-betting in a lot of situations.

[quote=Stu_Ungar;995897]Would you routinely c-bet every flop?

If not what influences your decision?quote]


1. Number of opponents
2. Texture of flop
3. Opponent tendancies (fold to c-bet, post flop aggression etc.)
4. hand value vs opponents range
etc etc

I too have trouble with this. . .basically from what's been said pre-flop the only pertinent play is to c-bet when you have AA, AK, AQ, KQ. . .otherwise try to keep the pre-flop simple?

Well, I'm no expert, and a medium-tight player. But I would not expect someone to pre-flop raise with a low to mid pair. I could see myself going all-in with a pair of 8s depending on position and preflop action before raising them.

You don't need x-ray specs though to figure that if someone is calling a 3x raise, they have something too - particularly in the BB or someone who limped behind you with an A8 suited or a pair of 10s. And I've often heard it said, if you don't catch anything, someone else did. Not always true of course. Maybe it depends on how many called my pre-flop. I dunno, this is just my weakest area, and lately find myself limping with AJ or KQ more than I should, depending on position and action - because I'm scared of not hitting.

My point with the x-ray goggles comment was...

From your original example you hold AQ, pre-flop raise, and flop 852. How would you play AA with that flop? How about KK?? TT+???

If you bet that flop 70% of the time with AA and 70% of the time with AQ then how am I going to know which hand you have? Now, what if you always bet AA and always check AQ?

Betting when you have it and checking when you don't will get picked apart by your more observant opponents.

Guess what I meant was in cases where your opponents don't know you. Your opponents are new or not observant, just your avg opponents. I know others do better, probably. It's just a weak spot. I think they see right through it.

How do you make this calculation, it's a random thing or you take into account your opponents stats?

If it is a random choice, how do you calculate the % ?

852. Okay, I absolutely see what you're saying. When I have KK, I will bang back with authority. It's just that when I have AA or KK, and someone CALLS the c-bet, I am likely to WIN. When I bluff a c-bet, if they DO call with that K8, I will LOSE. So I guess this question could be carried a step further. What do you do when someone 1) calls 2) reraises (obviously (to me) fold). Do you bet out again, bigger this time when a 3 or 9 comes on the turn? Or do you check and let your opponent think 1) you were bluffing after all 2) you're waiting to trap him (this works sometimes, and they check).

My usual 'level of comfort' of to check fold when I miss. Cut my losses. Again, a K hits, maybe I go for it. 852, it's gotta be checked to me, the button, before I try to pull a fast one.

Winning or losing pots shouldn't be your focus. That's something you can't control. What you can control is getting your chips in when you're likely to win, protecting them when you're not, and giving yourself the best chance to win the pot.

You're LESS likely to win the pot when someone calls your c-bet. If your heads up on the flop and your opponent folds to your c-bet then you win 100% of the time. If they call then they still have a chance to win. Unless, they're drawing dead but then you weren't really c-betting anyway.

The intent of a c-bet is to win the pot when you miss or build the pot when you're ahead. Sometimes you won't know which intention you're accomplishing but either is better than the alternatives of: folding the best hand, failing to bet the best hand, or giving a free card.


The question can be carried a lot further but looking to apply generalized concepts to increasingly specific situations will only get confusing. You should try posting specific c-betting situations that stumped you and let some more experienced CC'ers help out.

to c-bet varies... depending on the table style... and your stack... alot of mitigating factors influence my c-bet... one thing about it is that its a good way to judge where you stand in the hand against other players and a min bet ill find out the same as a 1/3 or 1/4 pot bet

I do this often in tournament play but there are alot of factors to consider. Your position, how much you raised before the flop, the flop itself, type of player(s) who called your raise, and stage of tournament you are in. The situation I would like to elaborate on is when you raise against an aggressive player or a player with a huge chipstack who just flat calls, raise after raise to see a flop. When the flop comes against these players and I hit it then I will check to see what they want to bet out. Then I will either smooth call or re-raise depending on how confident I am with the board (flush or str8 draws will usually deter me from betting to aggressively). Then if the turn doesnt help the str8 or flush oppurtunity then I will make the move all in on the turn.

All understood. And thanks much for the help. It still won't come natural to me, but I will start trying it more frequently. Don't get me wrong. I have often c-betted when I don't hit, with mixed results. I hold my breath, and let out that sign of relief when they fold - and almost a sigh of relief when someone bets out, so I can fold and not have to face the c-bet decision. But you're right about the increasingly specific situations. The elements of any hand are always a little different (position, knowing your opponent(s), stack sizes, not to mention the cards themselves). So much so, you'll never get a definitive correct answer. But every bit of insight helps. Thanks again.

To me, a min-raise is the same as a check. It tells me someone is almost trying to save face. OR... they hit and THEN some. Depends on the flop I guess. If, for instance, I PFR w/AQ, and a 852 hits, I'd rather come back with the same 3 or 4x BB raise and hope for the best. Then you'll really know where you stand. But agreed, a lot of mitigating factors.

All excellent points. The only thing I do differently though, is I'll raise a LOT more aggressively if the flop is wet (is that the correct term? I mean str8 or flush possibility), and pray the scare card doesn't come. If the flop brings 3 of a suit, and I don't have a big one, I'll lay it down in an instant. No point in raising, as anyone with an A or K or even Q will call.

Fulltilt Tip #161 by Jon Turner might help some out here. Some decent info. in it.

Personally, I'll occassionally check when I do hit the flop, to induce my opponent to lead out or to disguise my hand on the turn (ie. I might get a guy with a med. pkt. pr. to lead out, etc.).
I try to vary it up a bit and always taking into consideration - - 'my opponent'. I'll c-bet about 65% of the time (but also varies dependent upon situation). And c-bet will vary depending upon texture of the board (and my opponent.. again). I'll try to keep my c-bets the same as when I do hit the board 1/2 to 3/4 pot, usually closer to the 1/2 range,... and I'm betting out similiarly when I've flopped that set after 'raising' preflop with a med. pr., or low pkt. pr. (yah... I don't limp in if I'm first into the pot preflp with med. to low prs., I'm raising in an effort to disguise my hand so that I can represent that Ace or King on the flop when I c-bet and also so that I can really get paid off when I do come out betting with a set and someone else has hit the Ace, etc., etc.).
Good question though,... I see alot of stuff on the tables with this that I consider a mistake (ie. min bets on the flop???... and the all too common donk auto-pot bet steal attempt,.... is he really going to always bet pot when he hits the flop hard,... I doubt it, he wants a shittier hand to call).
Not sure if it's okay to post a tip by an online pro here (if it's got quotes?),... if so I'll copy/paste a couple here later.
GL all!!