Betting for value

If you hold a high ace on an AXX board, no draws, can you really bet the flop for value against a loose player with a high fold to c-bet?

You likely have the best hand, but will fold out virtually all hand you are beating with a bet.

So other than a check/call line, what lines are considered optimal in this very common situation?

No matter how hard you try, often your opponent isn't going to put money in the pot unless he has, can, or will have beat Ax. Just bet and take the pot down.

Why?

I can check it down and still win as often

No I don't think you can get much value out of a hand of this type. Maybe one street. And if the board is really dry then you might go for the value on a later street. More than likely i'd go for it on the turn as oppossed to the river. Unless the turn pairs the board or a complete brick. But these guys really aren't going to pay you much post flop anyway. So if the board was the slightest bit scary i'd be betting to protect my hand as its not that strong. I wouldn't worry too much about getting value on this hand but isolate and cbet in future hands to get your value.

Partly for balancing (because you're going to bet there with less than Ax), but mostly for the fact that your opponent will only put in money when he has or can beat Ax.

Some opponents definitely can be suckered into betting if you check; I absolutely agree with that and use it from time to time. But on the whole you'll be forced to call two streets with no information and often be behind.

It's generally better to win the small pot when you can, and value bet the weaker aces for a larger pot - that's where your value is coming from.

Do you think that the type of player who will down any pair on an Axx board will bet 3 streets because its checked?

If there's a draw out there, I'm betting regardless for the benefit of increasing the credibility of my c-bets and protecting against the draw.

If there's no draw, then I'm check/calling.

It is a shitty spot when that happens. I have deleted 3 responses so far after typing them. I think I like betting here for balance and hand defense. Maybe a delay cbet on the turn to prevent being floated, and generally cause confusion. Many players might put you on a weak pair with this pattern and give you some value, and theres some chance of scaring off stronger weak aces with this line too. All depends on the opponent type of course.

Overall I think its a rough spot to determine optimal action, which means that assuming you don't royally screw it up any reasonable course of action is probably fairly close in EV. Best thing to do is probably just not play weak enough aces that you feel you have to worry and try to get to showdown cheap, but still defending your very vulnerable hand.

High fold to cbet often means either total nit, who you have to be worried about having a stronger ace, but might pay you off with kk qq and the like, or a total preflop station. So you've got a lot of things that are seeing flops and then ditching when they miss. These types will either let you know when you have them beat, or be superpassive, so your defensive bet will probably be the only one you have to mess with to see the showdown, or be told plainly you are beaten. But against the lose guy you'll wind up letting him draw to 2 pair and calling his river bet thinking you have him beat and he's just trying to steal it from you. You may as well be the aggressor if you're putting in the one bet anyway. Then you still have all the SD equity you had in either case, plus fold equity.

Incase you couldn't tell I decided to stop deleting things. I think the stream of consciousness thing is a big help in poker-think. Rambling conversation that went like that were a big part of how my game grew, and many of the big pros have said the same, so screw it. Enjoy my novella.

In poker you are either folding too much or calling to much.

There is a GTO middle ground but lets ignore this for time being.

On Axx no draw board, Next to no hands hit, So if the villain has a high fold to cbet, He is making a mistake and you shouldn't really worry about betting for value in this spot.

Lame exaggeration to make my point is this situation.
You are in the SB,
A nit that ONLY raises AA and fold all other cards is BB.
You have KK. Now your Raising here would only get raised by better and fold out worse. However since he is already making a mistake by folding his BB so often, You just have to treat it like 27 and steal.

While your situation has alot more variables that could affect the action that is best. Assuming he is playing GTO in all other areas , I think that you just have to bet and take down the dead money.

Stu,

How would you play the hand against that player w/out having made the Ace? If you completely missed the flop, depending on your table image, you're more than likely going to bet vs an opponent with a high fold to c-bet, right? Why not do it when you have the card you're representing? I would imagine the optimal play would be to play exactly the same against that opponent in that situation whether you made your hand or not.

The real value comes later in the session by exploiting the image you create by the actions you take in this hand. You may be able to steal a pot with air because he believes you in a similar situation. Or conversely, he may pay you off with lesser hands when you have a stronger (than the weak ace) hand if they see you with a high c-bet %. You might get looked up by that AX or middle pair when you have AK.

I think, in general, there are more advantages to take the initiative and bet compared to risks (opponent draws to two pair/trips, runner-runner straights and flushes) that can happen when you don't. Don't get greedy. Like my grandpa always said, "You never go broke from taking a profit!"

Generally, against this type of player, I would check flop, minbet turn, and if the opponent is still there with no obvius draws on board I would then bet 1/3 or so for value. This river bet will either milk a few more chips from a second pair/strong kicker hand, or let you fold cheap if opponent really was sitting on a big hand. This is just a broad line on how I would play the hand based on the very broad scenario presented.

There is nothing wrong with checking back the flop in hands like this where you're never getting called by worse provided you think you might get some value on later streets specifically because you checked the flop. Generally though a loose player will have more weaker Ax hands in his range so betting for value is still the best play.

Checking back makes more sense against tight players whose range is basically better Aces/sets/underpairs. It's that range that we're looking to play smaller pots against and that we might get value on later streets from if we check the flop.

OOP my default is to cbet that flop basically 100% of the time I am the preflop raiser regardless of my cards.

I love greedy players who check their AK on Axx and expect to get more from me.. I always call weak flop bets with any pocket pair and I hope to hit my set on the turn.. You can't believe how many players won't fold their Aces and give me their entire stack when I do hit it!!!

Wait... I said I call weak flop bets, but you want to do something better for me - give me 1 free card! I'll take it !

Conclusion -> Always bet at least 66% of the pot in such spots. You can't win at poker if you check your hands and/or give cheap cards. You are giving everyone a chance to outdraw you...

Would people mind reading the OP.

The situation was against a player who is loose preflop and has a high fold to c-bet post flop.