betting for thin value

I have heard a term a few times in the last week or so that I haven't run across before. Betting for thin value. Can anyone explain what this means? I have some ideas but nothing definitive.

Thin value bets usually occur on the river when your range is ahead of villain's range, although barely. Generally it's a spot where you have no nut hands in your range and villain has very few but you can extract value from the rest of villain's range.

It's a situation that separates great players from average ones who will check back their mediocre holdings 99% of the time for showdown value.

I'm a little drunk so please excuse.

In poker you'll often be faced with situations where you have obvious spots where it's a value bet or a bluff. You have the nuts, you value bet. You have the worst hand but you feel he can fold his better hand, bluff. Fairly simple.

Occasionally you will have hand of medium strength that compared to his entire range is a favourite. You won't be value betting 100% of the time in this spot you may be 70% or even 60%. You are still betting for value against his range but that value is very thin. That is where the term comes from. Betting for value but it's quite marginal and isn't always obvious. You're value betting medium hands against a range.

Here's a good example of a hand played by two TV pros on the Big Game.

Tony G raises on the button to $2,000 with

Daniel Negreanu calls from the BB with

The flop is

DN checks, Tony G bets $4,000, DN check-raises to $14,000. Tony G calls

Turn is

DN checks, Tony G checks

River:
DN checks, Tony G bets $25,000, DN calls


Both players have medium strength hands; both are aware that the other does not have Tx+. Tony G makes a gorgeous thin value bet knowing that DN probably has a marginal showdown hand and will call with worse, putting a lot of missed draws in Tony G's range.

Thank you for that explanation. I thought it was something like that but couldn't put it into words. Again, thank you.

In the hand described, had Daniel bet on the end that does tony raise for value at that point or can he just call with the feeling that he got as much value with as little risk as possible. He's never folding to a river bet right?

Raising the river would be on another level sick and I'm not sure if it's bad or not. Tony G would have to fold though for sure.

FWIW, here is negreanu's take on the hand after he was ripped on 2+2 for calling the river.

I'm not sure on the reasoning that he'd bet smaller with K7/A7 since K7 pretty much = 88 here.

Did not know what "thin value bet" meant either but the example really explained it well. I guess a thin value bet would sometimes carry some steal equity with it but probably not so much in this example.

So basically it is just a "value bet" but you expect not to win as often with a "thin value bet" as you would with a "value bet", correct?

There's an old cliche among poker players that you check your medium strength hands and bet your strong hands (for value) and weakest hands (as a bluff). This is a common spot where a ton of players will check back any pair and be happy to showdown for fear of getting check-raised on river.

Of course the reality is you will almost never get bluffraised on the river in a spot like this and if you do, you should probably find another game.

As for Tony G, I think it is an important part of his style to not give cheap showdowns to marginal hands OOP. Showing that he can correctly value bet his marginal hands as well as monsters makes him difficult to play with.

Yeah Tony G gets ripped on sometimes but the hand above shows he can really play.

yeah and I think DN's comments show a lack of understanding of the value of betting thin.

First off, I seriously doubt he shows up with JJ in this spot, like ever. JJ is a clear 3-bet for value against Tony G's button open. Furthermore, even granting that JJ is in DN's range here, the fact that you have to be at the top of your range to win doesn't make it a bad bet on Tony G's part.

off topic: does DN post on 2+2?

yes

I've never heard of the term "thin" value bet. Thank you to the people who explained what it means and when it is used.

Turn is so bad to DN.

Less combos of 7x in the deck. And your the guy who loves to bring up blockers so much in hand analysis...

In terms of relative hand strength K7 = 88; I'm pretty sure Tony G would play it the same way. Basically DN beats a busted straight draw and nothing else, including 75.

True, but I love to nitpick.