Bet sizing in 4b pots

Heard a lot of differing opinions on this and wondering what the general concensus is...

I aim to keep my bet sizing rather similar in relation to the pot. I realise this is a very broad question but still wondering how we generally approach a few different scenarios...

Say we 4b something like KK OOP and for some unholy reason we get flatted by the 3ber, assume ESS is 100bb pre flop for arguments sake. I say this because it's obv not necessary to bet that big anymore post flop to get stacks in. So what if;

1. We flop a set on AK2
2. We flop an overpair on dry and low like 259
3. We flop an overpair on wet as hell like 89Txx

If we assume you opened for 3x, the 3bet was probably to around 8-9x, and your 4bet was probably to 25-35x. With 50-70x in the pot, the stack you have left is somewhere between just under pot to 1.5 pot. This limits your flexibility. Absent a very solid read, it seems hard to justify not getting it all in one any of these boards.

This seems right to me. The best option is to ship it.

What is your 4bet sizing jc? 25x or higher seems far too large, if you want to be able to 4bet bluff at times then you should just 4bet smaller like from a 9bb raise to 21bb's, this is assuming people arent going to be calling 4bets IP or OOP, which they don't tend too.

I think its super player dependent once we hit or whatever but you can do things like bet an amount like i dunno 1/3 pot or so which under the right stack sizes and stuff allows you to bluff in these spots too if you do that for value, and like w/ top set on AKx or say tptk on Kxx, if we bet 1/3 pot we can induce a lot of spazz if our opponent is likely to do stuff like that cause you put your opponent in a shove or fold situation which is sometimes pretty cool. Atleast it can induce some good mistakes as noone likes folding and a 1/3 pot bet to some just gives them an excuse to ship whatever they called a 4bet with that missed.

This is pretty much exactly my thought process, I feel like I lose too much value open shoving. I like inducing mistakes by bettin half pot or less because as you say, if I do it for value it can be as a bluff too, and people just don't like folding to a bet that size, plus it doesn't need to be larger to get stacks in. I'm usually 4betting to about 22BB vs a standard opponent w 100BB stacks. Thanks acky

EDIT; also lol, you wouldn't believe how often my 4b gets flatted. So retarded

Lol I think we're over analyzing in this particular situation.. unless you lead with 1/8th pot cbet, villaiin realizes he's going to commit stack herre (on turn or river if not immediately). I rather open shove while villain still has hope/outs to chase (ie 89T flop). Villain shouldn't call anything for 1/2 pot that he isn't ready to commit stack to anyway lol)

Akx flop is the only one I might play differently...maybe check flop repping qq/jj and give villain a chance to take a stab at it? That or weak cbet to induce, whichever you find more effective...Villain aggro dependant of course.

4xing to 25 BBs, wat

10nl bro, most dont realise theyre committing lol, often times its "call with my mid pair and hope to bink 2p or fold. they call, they dont bink, i shove and theyre like hmmmmmm $4 to win $20, yeye get it in lol

I think it's player dependent and obviously will play out differently depending on what they do on the flop, but i think it'd probably be +EV to just shove any of those flops.

obv +EV to shove any, but i dont think that maximises value... trying to suck out that extra few BB/100 ha

Well in that case i'd check raise all in assuming that the villain would continue some aggression, if not i'd just shove any non-ace turn.

4bet to 21, 22bb, not bigger unless you have a pretty good reason to make it any bigger.

bet size strictly based on how many streets you want to play before having the stacks in the middle. Typically you'll need to multiply the pot by 4 or 5 (40bb to 200bb) so you can

shove flop (1 street, probably bad).

bet 50% to 60% of pot on flop and turn. Good when your hand could be vulnerable, i.e. board is pretty wet or your OP would suffer from overcards on turn/river.

bet 35% of pot on flop, turn and river. Good if your hand is rock solid, or if villain spatzes vs small bets, or as a bluff.

24/25bb used to be the norm now mine is 20bbish will vary and few bb depending on their 3b size. people arent getting creative and flatting 4bets most of the time, if they are just note it and 4bet slightly wider for value or bigger

is 4betting to like 20bb not a bit small? Usually people 3bet to about 10bb so I find it hard to see people folding to such a small 4bet. I usually make it like 30bb, i.e 3x the size of their bet.

Nope, people used to always make it 25bb just because someone once said it was "standard". 4betting to 25bb or bigger is pretty terrible imo, atleast in the games i play in. Maybe if you're never 4bet bluffing and people are never 3betting and folding it would be ok, otherwise its far too big.

It's a lot harder to play against someone who 4bets to 20bb with a pretty balanced range, there is less incentive to 5bet jam light, and when you do 5bet jam villain has a pretty easy decision whether to call or not. Thankfully lots of people still do 4bet to 25bb's and so 3b/5betting wider for value doesn't have to get that many folds to show instant profit, cause a lot of them are 4bet bluffing too much also.

Glad I made this thread. Thanks all for your views, lots of good stuff for me to consider. I would now like to steer the post in a slightly different direction. So my OP was bet sizing in 4b pots, given examples in which I am value 4bing pre and post. How about when I get 3b with my 98s or whatever and decide that this spot and villain make a 4b bluff a good option.
At 10nl, I only really have 1 player type that I bother using the 4b bluff against, and that's vs the tagnits who will only stack AA and KK pre, but are not being submissive and letting me steal my fair share of their blinds lol, and consequently they 3b wide (not really polarized or merged, just kinda as a resteal)
4b bluffs work well against these guys, because my 4b gets shoved on rarely (and can be 100% positive it's QQ+ AK at widest) and can make the easy fold, or have them snap fold everything else the other 90% of the time.

Here's where shit throws me...
I guess after a while they just get pissed, because they often decide to start flatting my 4bs. How should I Generally approach these situations post flop assuming I TOTALLY miss? Same Cbet like I would for value 35-50% for balance? Just give up instantly if they call flop?

Lame spot I hate it

EDIT: obv if they start flatting my 4bs I'm going to go back to only ever 4bing for value

Balancing isnt gonna be important at 10nl but that would be fine, you don't even have to bet at all if you miss. If you think hes mostly on AJ,AQ type hands then yeah bet some nice low flops i'm sure he will just put you on AA and fold. If he doesn't like folding in general then i'm sure he wont exploit you if you just wait until you hit. But yeah you answered it in your edit: you shouldn't be 4betting so much that people end up getting fed up and start calling 4bets oop, they probably just getting hands or playing KK weirdly, i'd imagine the first thing they will do if they are even gonna get pissed off is 5bet light or something

Agree with the above, the vast majority of players at that level aren't noticing things like bet sizing and stuff so play the situation for whatever is going to be best regardless of image or history.

yeah add another level onto this topic it allows for 5bet jamming lighter 4betting smallish. Jesus start a 3b/5b thread for lols!