Poker Forum - Register
For the biggest and best online poker promotions use a pokerstars marketing code which earns you bonus money as does a full tilt poker referral code which is applicable for poker games & strategies online to play online poker at Us poker sites for winning lots of money.
Titan Poker Party Poker Bodog Pacific Poker
Go Back   Poker Forum > Poker Message Boards > Strategy Forum
Search
SEARCH THE ONLINE POKER FORUMS  

Online Poker Forum
Reply
  Poker - Bet/folding vs check/calling
 
  #1  
15-07-2008, 9:36 PM
F Paulsson
Monsieur Chateaux
 
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posts: 3,078
Bet/folding vs check/calling

Getting better at poker is often - mostly - a slow and gradual process. Some steps are small and some are big. I was recently reminded of one of my big steps; a very "aha!" moment I had: When I realized why sometimes bet/folding the river was better than check/calling.

On the surface, it's counterintuitive. Let's say that I can either put in $20 myself on the river, but fold if my opponent raises, or I can check and call $20 if he bets. "Either way," I told myself, "I've put in $20, but in the second case I get to see a showdown. How could the first option possibly be better?"

It can be, and it often is. It all comes down to ranges. I expertly made a little illustration to help, well, illustrate the point (click on it to see a larger version):



The bar represents, from left to right, our opponent's range. The farther to the right, the stronger his hand. On a A64-K-J board, for instance, QT (the nuts) would be all the way to the right, and 75 would be all the way to the left. The nuts vs. absolute trash. Let's keep the A64-K-J example and run with it for awhile. And let's give ourselves A-K.

The colors represent what the player is likely to do and the respective outcome for us. In the first bar, we bet out. If we ignore our opponent's trash in the beginning, we see that there's a pretty wide green bar in the middle. That green is the range that he's willing to call with that we beat. It includes hands like AQ, perhaps KJ and probably other top-pair type hands. Farther to the right, we have the red hands - the ones that beat us. This consists of sets and straights. He will most likely raise any hand that beats us.

If you notice the small red part in the beginning, it's because I'm allowing for my opponent to sometimes bluff raise us, and for all intents and purposes, we can say that he will do that with the very worst of his hands. Maybe 5-7, that missed its open-ended straight draw, will take a stab on the river.

Here's what to take home from this illustration: The green parts are where we make a bet. The red parts are where we lose a bet. The idea is to maximize the size of GREEN minus RED.

... and that brings us to the second bar, where we instead of betting out decide to check and call. This time, our opponent's bluffs (at the very left of his range) will be called and are therefore no longer red; they're green. We make money when he bluffs. But then comes an alarmingly long stretch of black; black meaning that we didn't make anything. He just checked behind and we won the pot with the best hand. Most players are careful on the river; they don't want to risk more money with a marginal hand. They might call to see if you're bluffing or just to see if their hand was good enough, but if they could choose, they'd prefer not to put money in. That's where the black stretch comes from.

Then there's some green stretch farther to the right; his stronger hands that you can still beat. Ace-jack comes to mind. And of course, all the way to the right are the same monsters as in the first bar, that he will surely bet for value when you check to him. Again, they're red, and again, you lost $20 to them.

But, and here's the whole point, note how much bigger the GREEN minus RED is in the top bar.

This is why bet/folding is such a powerful weapon. It forces opponents to pay to see a showdown when they'd rather not, and it's a hugely profitable strategy as long as this particular player isn't prone to bluffing too much - thus making the red stretch on the left bigger - compared to how much he's calling - thus shrinking his green stretch in the middle.

Like I said, this was one of my greatest "aha!"-moments.
 

Absolute PokerAbsolute Poker Referral Code CCHAT will get you a 100% upto $500 bonus at AbsolutePoker.com.

Sportsbook PokerSportsbook Poker is a rapidly growing US poker site that only accepts players from the US. Use the bonus code CARDSCHAT for a 100% upto $1000 bonus.

  #2  
15-07-2008, 9:49 PM
WebKill
Junior Member
 
Posts: 15
every of this strategy move depends of the circunstance, the number of player in hand and the position of the players.
  #3  
15-07-2008, 10:14 PM
F Paulsson
Monsieur Chateaux
 
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posts: 3,078
The circumstances, number of players and position of the players are implicitly stated in the text. Did you read it?
  #4  
15-07-2008, 10:30 PM
sindri_93
CardsChat Elite
 
Plays at: Fulltilt/PS
Likes: NL/Razz
Posts: 1,844
Fantastic article Paulsson! Really eye opening when u can see the concept in black and white(black,green and red exually).
  #5  
15-07-2008, 10:37 PM
Alythezon
New Member
 
Plays at: Full Tilt
Likes: All
Posts: 2
Although i guess that is good in a random situation. You should be able to piece it togeather by the river and know if he has the nuts or trash rather than have a standard play that you do, but being aggressive is usually better. I mean if you are in position that is way different than out of position and it also depends on your hand as well. But it shows progress on your part to think about it.
  #6  
16-07-2008, 1:01 AM
WVHillbilly
Senior Azzhole
 
Location: Almost Heaven
Plays at: Full Tilt
Posts: 2,689
Good stuff FP.

Nice to see you progressing nicely!
  #7  
16-07-2008, 1:29 AM
NineLions
Advanced beginner
 
Location: Vancouver
Plays at: PS, FT
Posts: 2,728
Thanks Fredrik. It's alway enlightening to hear about "aha" moments for other people. A lot of times they're things we've already read or heard about, but all of a sudden it makes sense and we can actually start to apply it properly.


Other things being equal, are you more likely or less likely to do this OOP as opposed to IP? I suppose that it gains some blocking bet effect OOP.
  #8  
16-07-2008, 1:54 AM
combuboom
it's a brand new era
 
Location: Florida
Plays at: Full Tilt
Likes: NL Hold 'em
Posts: 4,211
good way of diagramming it, FP

Quote:
Originally Posted by NineLions
Other things being equal, are you more likely or less likely to do this OOP as opposed to IP? I suppose that it gains some blocking bet effect OOP.
well, you can't really "do this" in position, as it's somewhat different. in position you simply value bet if you think you get called by worse often enough (that is, enough to make up for when he calls with better, or makes a c/raise with better or worse that you're unable to call). and fwiw, i'd imagine if there's anything a lot of CC could improve on, it's value betting more thinly
  #9  
16-07-2008, 5:58 AM
zachvac
Tenbob Curse Victim
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
Plays at: Pokerstars
Likes: NL Hold 'em
Posts: 5,397
The other tactic in this position I've seen is the small bet/call line against an aggressive opponent. The logic being that this small bet looks weak and will be called by marginal hands, and raised by trash/monsters. The reason I said aggressive players is that if a player is likely to bluff raise here bluffs probably represent a bigger range than the monsters, thus the call is more profitable than a fold. Just a third option to consider, and used as an alternative to the check/call against an aggressive opponent. While the check/call probably induces more bluffs than the bet/call does, the bet/call also gets value from marginal hands that he won't bet with and also gets more from the bluffs.
  #10  
16-07-2008, 8:03 AM
F Paulsson
Monsieur Chateaux
 
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posts: 3,078
Yeah, betting to induce a raise can be useful. Especially since check/calling is often overused so when people see you bet two streets into them and then check the river, they may expect you to be calling whatever bet they throw out there and thus just check behind instead of bluffing.
 

« Previous Looking for a Ring Coach    Betting the Pot Next »


Similar Threads for: Poker > Bet/folding vs check/calling
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
bet/folding a scary river instead of check/calling joosebuck Strategy Forum 2 03-04-2007 12:02 PM


Full Tilt Poker
PLAY WITH THE PROS, $600 BONUS, US FRIENDLY POKER SITE!

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:47 PM.


Sitemap: General

Copyscape   Poker En Ligne Online Poker Poker Online
Carbon Poker Coupon Code - All original site contents ©Cardschat.com 2004-2008. Reproduction is prohibited.