BEST WAY TO PLAY JJ OR QQ AGAINST A FLOP WITH AN ACE OR KING??

Hey fellow card chatters,

I have trouble sometimes on the best way to play queens or jacks with an ace or king on the board. I will usually always raise with the hand PF but when the ace or king hits sometimes I will bet out and see where I'm at, if I get called I assume I'm beat. Any suggestions?

That's pretty much what I do. Of course it also depends on my opp and what reads I have on him and if the board is wet or dry.

I suggest to raise at least 3x preflop with JJ or QQ in hand. Its better than limping preflop and den struggling with A or K in flop...
But as you have asked about playing post flop, i would say u strictly check it or call only small bets...And if u hit a trips at turn or river, u know u have to raise big{i wont suggest going allin though} !!!

you've raised preflop...great. a-k or both have hit...dammit...they're difficult hands to lay down preflop regardless of position, and its annoying to just get called but it usually pays off. take notes on the "any ace" type players and the "calls std raises with his blinds" type players. i think with JJ or QQ, its still worth a c-bet when OOP...and it might just let you know where you stand, or take the pot down right then and there. if you're in position, you'll quickly know whether you should fold. and depending on how the guys who called you are playing, you might be able to pick up on when you should check to the next card, call a bet, or raise. these are the types of hands that can make make post-flop play very tricky if an overcard hits and all you can really hope for is to all ready have a read on who's in with you. nothing wrong with folding when AA9 hits the flop after you raised with JJ and they shove on you...then show they have K9o and go "LOL!"...you raised for value, the idiot showed you had them beat...you have a better read now, they still had an overcard, and you saved the rest of your chips to give them a spanking later on. but hey, when i'm short, its a sng or mtt, and the blinds are deadly...JJ, QQ...or hell, any pp, that's an all-in gold mine, that's way better than the good ol shove of any 2 cards while you still have fold equity. they should be relatively easy hands to let go when you have the stack to fold though

I think this is kinda old school to be honest.. but of course 'it depends'.

I've read in a thread before where you've written "wanted to bet out to see where I was at". I'd suggest reading Daniel Negreanu's latest book to gain a different perspective on this (or advanced MTT book.. "winning poker tournaments - one hand at a time").

Take this example... okay so you've lead out with a c-bet 'to see where you're at'.. and villain calls you... now what? Did you 'see where you were at'? Leading out also gives villain an oppurtunity to bluff you off the winning hand. It won't cost you more chips to 'check/call' in this spot (of course this depends... ie. in some cases you're going to want to 'represent' the A or K on the flop).
By leading out on the flop, you're basically turning what my be the winning hand into a bluff... if you check the flop you might induce bets from villain from hands you're ahead of (essentially instead of turning your hand into a bluff... it's now become a 'bluff catcher').

I should probably post some HH's to better illustrate what I'm getting at here... in different scenarios where often it is better to check the flop instead of 'betting to see where we're at' (often it really doesn't give us much info. at all... especially against a more skilled, trickier opponent).

OP.... maybe post a handhistory of your own, with reads on villain, table image, etc.

I make a probe bet and if a player raise i fold.

As was said, it depends. The more players in the hand, the more likely I would check, rather than c-bet. Another thing to consider, how coordinated is the board? If there is a flush draw, your callers could be on the draw and not have an A or K. On these coordinated boards I would probably check the flop. On a rainbow board I would probably put out a smallish probe bet, since any straight draw would be a gutshot. As always, your position is important. If I had position I would probably bet if everyone checked. If you're out of position, you might check. What if you are in position, but another player bets into you, despite you being the preflop raiser? Good Luck!

If there isn't a raise before you, your can't do many more than bet 3xBB.

But when someone before you already did a raise, you can 3-bet with this hand. You want as much as possible in the pot pre-flop...

i find the best line is to check/call in these spots. if you lead out most of the hands you got beat fold. and for the most part only hands that got you beat call you. now if you check the villian will bet out with most of those hands that would of folded to a bet. yes some hands that beat you also bet but after you bet/call the flop you still maybe able to take the pot away from someone with top pair weak kicker. if they end up checking the turn after they bet the flop pending on the villian i may try thin vbet on the river.

OOp to villain check/call will save you chips/money if villain has hit.

In position (given you have thinned the field with a pf raise) I'd play it as if I had the A most of the time (without reads)

- if villain likes check-raising I'd take the free card hoping to hit my set on turn.

very tough hands post flop with ace or king on board i know i have huge troubles with these hands but i bet out and lose most of the time

I usually will try to represent the ace, i will bet about 3/4 of the pot to put pressure and if raised , i toss, if I have chips then I might call a smallish raise with QQ, and as said before somewhere if the texture of the board is draw heavy then I might fire a second bullet if a blank hits, but good advice so far, thanks!

I've never thought about it like this before. I've always opted for the "old school" technique and I can definitely see the possible upside to this approach. I would be very interested to see some hand histories from both sides.

In order to be a bluff catcher a raise from oop on the turn or the river would be involved right? That would take cojones.

This sound like a good way to go if you're oop, if you check and opponent raise then you can check reraise ... after all you did raise pre-flop so you might have A K or big pockets, now he will be in a though spot.. and he really need a good hand to continue.

bet 3BB before the flop, bet on the flop, if i get reraised i fold,

Right. Best to run through your options and also 5 diff scenarios that can play out here comes to mind.

1)You raise early out of pos - MULTIWAY
2) You raise early out of pos - Headsup
3) You are out of pos and are caught between two players.
4) You are in pos and its Multiway
5) you are in pos and it's Headup

Questions to ask yourself: What's your image? (bluffing too much and showing will result in less respect) What's your opponent's image? (what's his raising range) Is your opponent a thinking player? What's the texture on the board besides the A/K on the board? (is there a flush/str draw?) How much chips do you have left? If you make a move, are you pot-committed? How far into the tournament are you? (are you better off taking a stand or giving this up for better chances down the line) What are the blinds/antes? (This determines how much to bet)

What are your options?

Fold (assumming he bets) - Out of position(OOP) and multiway.. your best option unless you wanna bluff on the A/K. Safest choice and easiest to take.

Bet - it's checked to you and you bet or you're out of position and you bet first. A good decision if heads up and a cheaper way to gain information than check raising.

Check-raise shows the most strength. I mean, comeon, the range of hands you could have raise with includes (AK,AQ,) and you could have the K and you may induce the guy to fold a weaker kicker but this usually rarely happens. If you face a reraise or worse, a reraise all in, this would have cost you much more than a raise would have.

Another option I've seen is people making small blocker bets all the way. Keeps the pot small but usually that's a giveaway of what you're holding IMHO.

Now assuming this hands goes into 4th street and the river.. You may want to reaccess the situation. And this is where your reads come in? do you fire a 2nd barrel or a 3rd barrel? How big a bet do you bet to try and bluff him off it?
If you hit your two-outer on the way.. Good for you. Reel him in. Go to valuetown with him but watch out for any made draws.

Lots to think about. Comes with experience but whatever it is, never have a pre-set plan in stone. Always adapt to the situation. If it's multiway, more likely someone could be holding an A or a K but they could also be holding pocket pairs. This is wear your reads come in. More likely than not, you're beat and your opponent won't be able to fold unless he really respects you.

Another thing to consider is when you bet, what are the odds of a worse hand paying you off with JJ/TT/QQ when there's overcards on the board. Highly unlikely. Overall, best to play these hands cautiously or go for the jugular to play it like you have it. (then again, who says you need JJ/TT/QQ to do that) ;p

My 2 cents.

Flod JJ preflop and move on. JJ is as bad as AQ.

Well, PO, you have made good points. But I still like the c-bet on the flop to see where you're at. Say the other guy calls. Now you can assume he has something, maybe an A-rag or a draw. Yes, it tells you there could be a problem. A better way to see where you're at is check and then check-raise his almost inevitable bet. Then you will have a real good idea where you stand. It will cost you, but probably not as much as it might have.

I would make a raise pre flop and see how many callers there are and hope to take it down before the flop ever comes, if there is an A or K on the flop throw out a bet and see if you get reraised and if that is the case I would muck JJ QQ!

Assuming you mean fold - I won't fold JJ , AQos - they're not easy to play but you can't rely on getting AA,KK,QQ,AKos all the time, can you ?

btw JJ >> AKo/s

i raise big,sometime pot or a bit more, or push if im short..
if flop big i push...they usually fold

So far it seems to me that the check- check-raise will let you know where you are at the most, although expensive. If you bet straight out, and they call, I think the texture of the board should give you a lil info, and if there are draws out there especially flush draw bcuz they are much more recognizable than straights, and you fire a second bullet, i think most people in lower stakes would just call with a draw, although you might get raised by more sophisticated players, more so in higher stakes. IMO I think bottom line is play the hand conservitively, and betting(or check-raising) is the only way to find out information. and if your in oop and they bet, that should say something.

You take a stab at the pot and if they reraise you then you are pretty much beat...If they call you down then perhaps they are chasing something

Cool.... I'll just re-raise you with air then when you're 'stabbing at the pot'. (you've turned a good hand into a bluff).

By check/calling on the flop it is costing you nothing more than the 'stab at the pot', AND you're going to get as much info. (or more once the turn comes) then you would by stabbing at the pot vs. a good player (you could be raised off the best hand, you could be floated and then what kind of info. is that giving you?.. none... maybe you're beat.. maybe you're not... now what are you going to do on the turn???.. >> donate more or c/f and give it up to the bluff... or QQ JJ, etc.).

FOLD them, i just found out the hard way. I was ran over on Jacks 2 times, in one SnG. Fold them to a reraise....

I should of done that last night in the daily dollar on FT. Made a nice 4x the blinds with QQ. Call by the blinds. Flop 9 A 2 rainbow, check/check. I raise to 3/4 the pot, one raises, the other calls, I shove like an idiot and lose. I even said to myself "He's got an Ace!" Guy had A6o, other had 910o. Should of folded but couldn't cause I donked out on that one.

JJ is tricky, but most of the decision making comes preflop. Once you're sitting there looking at a flop with overcards, it comes down to your read on your opponent and position. If you have no read and you're out of position, good luck. Someone may call a c-bet because they've got you beat, but they may also call because they don't believe you because you c-bet too often. Or they may be on a draw with pot odds. Or they may be on a draw and desparate.

As with every hand in poker, the answer is the same: it depends. Don't ya hate that? But just in the tourament I played last night, I remember getting JJ twice: once I limped, and another time I raised 3x BB. In other games I've folded them. For tourament play especially, it depends upon which stage of the tournament you're in, what position your in, and how the other players have been reacting to your betting.

Good luck to you. JJ is definitely one of those tricky hands!

-Dave

Raise preflop, if called fold on a AxK flop

OUCH... I got nailed by pocket kings preflop, a queen on the next one, from a BB caller..

Most never seem to do that, they would shove all-in preflop, then get called by pocket Ks, Qs, As, some how seem to hit one of their 2 outs..

If you bet out preflop, you have to expect your opponent to have a pocket pair, paint, or an Ace with something. If the ace flops, you have to know the odds are your Q's or J's are beat. A continuation is OK, but so is checking to see another card, then betting or nat based on that board. I am finding that it is tough to have a steadfast rule in poker with the variables of position, chip stacks, player styles,etc...

Havent read any other posts this could be a repeat but.....


ok it depends on the situation i guess. usually the way i like to play them is i guess conservatively.. assuming you are in postion, whats the real harm in checking say queens on a board of A 2 7 rainbow?

if you are beat, your keeping the pot smaller and avoiding a big loss of chips, and if your ahead on the flop your likely to be ahead on the river. Also as it does look weak it entices players to make moves against you, say you raise with your queens and the big blind calls. you know this player defends regularly so you have no reason to supect your queens arnt the best hand.

Flop comes A 9 2 rainbow. not a great board for you, i wouldnt be wanting to play a big pot with that flop. he checks to you. some people would say bet to find out where your at.. but the problem with that is what if he calls? what does that tell you? he could be floating the flop and looking to pick the pot up later. he could check raise bluff you figuring you probably dont have an ace.

definately i would say check here, it looks kinda weak sure. but have massive advantages, it will let you keep the pot smaller, help you not be bluffed off the best hand and it will also entice players to bluff at you...

1. Poker is 100% situational, post some hands in the HA if u want any real advice since your never gonna get any leak pluggin advice by posting a super vague question.

2.Betting for information in NL and PL games is almost allways wrong, the information u gain is never worth the bet you spend on it.
You should only bet for 3 reasons, for value(what worse hand call), as a bluff(what better hand folds) and for protection(what draw are u scared of).

3. Read this The WA/WB concept .
Learning wa/wb will help u a tone in these spots and hopefully stop u from "betting for info" in the future.

Wow, great analysis! I hear so often "bet to see where you're at". In fact, I think I've posted it myself a few times! But in a 1500 chip tourney, at least, you can't really do that very often or you become SS very soon!

Thanks again. Great post!
-Dave

What to u gain from learning what villain has if he is only gonna fold when you have him beat and call/raise when he has u beat?
Thats just spending money on useless and expensive info.