best pre flop fold?

#2 22nd June 2008, 10:57 PM

No offense at all, but pretty dumb play on your part. You should not fold hands like that preflop, in fact, almost every pro player will call you stupid for doing it. It just so happened the one time you did fold it the villian had aces. More often than not, youre going to see him flip over QQ-AK

#3 22nd June 2008, 11:03 PM

i can take constructive criticism. But don't you agree that the villain's pre flop play screamed aces? And surely if i had him on the hand that he eventually had, that's good play on my part?

#4 22nd June 2008, 11:05 PM

#5 22nd June 2008, 11:15 PM

Nice fold on your part. It may be rare that the initial will have aces, but even ak is a scare, cause if he hits, you have to catch a one. Without question, a tough fold, but it'll lead to money in the bank making the proper preflop folds.

#6 22nd June 2008, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tripandy

i can take constructive criticism. But don't you agree that the villain's pre flop play screamed aces? And surely if i had him on the hand that he eventually had, that's good play on my part?

I've thought myself villian has had aces before when I had kings. Sometimes they did, most of the time they didnt. Players raise like that with a wider range of hands than AA. I think you got lucky on your laydown to be honest.

Like I said, I'm not trying to put you down or anything, just my point of view

#7 22nd June 2008, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willie beaman

Nice fold on your part. It may be rare that the initial will have aces, but even ak is a scare, cause if he hits, you have to catch a one. Without question, a tough fold, but it'll lead to money in the bank making the proper preflop folds.

AK is a scare against KK ? im never worried when i see that. obviously it doesnt win everytime but more often than not... we are laughin

#8 23rd June 2008, 12:11 AM

What were stack sizes in the hand? If they all had average you just folded the second best hand in poker only 30 big blinds deep. In fact, you are 17.746% to win (courtesy of pokerstove).

If we pretend everyone has 6000 (avg. stack), you put in 1500, 4500 to call, the pot is already 6k+6k+1500 = 13,500. You're getting exactly 3:1 to call so you need to be 25%. So the call isn't profitable if their hands are face up. But say you think it screams AA so much that you're up against aces 80% of the time and QQ+AK 20% of the time. Against those you are 55.703% to win. Meaning your combined equity would be 55.7*0.2+17.8*0.8 = 25.38%.

Therefore even if this is QQ and AK only 20% of the time (and remember AK is more likely in terms of number of combinations than AA) it's profitable for you to call here. If you think he does it with AA or AK whenever he gets it (and other guy has QQ), your equity is almost 40%, getting odds by far when you only need 25%.

#9 23rd June 2008, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

Everything Zachvac said

This. You were right this time, but it's a losing play longterm.

#10 23rd June 2008, 1:47 AM

Dumbest thing you did was show your cards.

#11 23rd June 2008, 4:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

Dumbest thing you did was show your cards.

Yeah that was really dumb

#12 23rd June 2008, 4:53 AM

next time instead of folding face up, whip out your penis and slap it across the dealer's face

#13 23rd June 2008, 5:02 AM

This video basically describes this thread.

YouTube - Icecold deck poker hand (unbelievable)

To sum it up Folding kings preflop is stupid unless you can see your opponents aces.

#14 23rd June 2008, 7:09 AM

#15 24th June 2008, 4:44 PM

well thanks for your thoughts guys, i realize that long term you should never fold kings preflop. But on this particular instant, i had a massive hunch.

Andy yeah, i suppose my biggest mistake was showing my cards. Ah well, i'm only 18 and still learning i suppose.

#16 24th June 2008, 5:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

What were stack sizes in the hand? If they all had average you just folded the second best hand in poker only 30 big blinds deep. In fact, you are 17.746% to win (courtesy of pokerstove).

If we pretend everyone has 6000 (avg. stack), you put in 1500, 4500 to call, the pot is already 6k+6k+1500 = 13,500. You're getting exactly 3:1 to call so you need to be 25%. So the call isn't profitable if their hands are face up. But say you think it screams AA so much that you're up against aces 80% of the time and QQ+AK 20% of the time. Against those you are 55.703% to win. Meaning your combined equity would be 55.7*0.2+17.8*0.8 = 25.38%.

Therefore even if this is QQ and AK only 20% of the time (and remember AK is more likely in terms of number of combinations than AA) it's profitable for you to call here. If you think he does it with AA or AK whenever he gets it (and other guy has QQ), your equity is almost 40%, getting odds by far when you only need 25%.

I'm absolute sure Zachs figures are probably dead on. HOWEVER! Zach is a very accomplished ring guy, and this is a tourney. Different dynamics are at play in a tourney, and although the odds are the same, the results will not be. You don't get into a tourney for the never ending 'long run'. You get into a tourney because and precisely because it has an end! Ring is continuous practice, where tourney's are performance.

If you believed villain had AA, and thus you had 2 outs, I applaud this particular laydown.

One of the tricks to tourney play is to avoid as much as possible 'Life or Death' decisions where someone else is doing the driving. . And while a nice triple up (using Zach's assumptions) would be nice, death here would not.

ICM

I would also guess, in this particular case the unintended consequences of showing those kings was beneficial to you . Probably gave you table respect which hopefully you understood and capitalized on.

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