Being Honest with oneself: dropping down to 2NL

Really, is Poker like a 12 Step program? I had to hit rock bottom before I finally admitted that I was not a good poker player. It took until I had lost 91% of my bankroll before I took ownership of the fact that my game was flawed. My flaw is this; I can play like a nit preflop; open-folding A9o on the button, not 3betting with AQo because I didn't want to play TP2K in a 3bet pot,only playing KJo as an opener from the button. BUT after the flop I was a hyper aggro shovetard. I figured that since I was patient and could go 3 orbits or more without playing a hand that I was 'entitled' to any pot I entered. I refused to lay down my pairs, always felt that a re-raise was because villains were making plays at me. I ignored re-raises, shoved with single pairs and nut flush draws and called all in bets vs short stacks with frightening ease. In other words I had NO postflop game.

Once I realized this I had to make a decision whether I was going to quit poker or try and get better. I chose the latter and humbly dropped down to 2nl. Really there isn't any difference between 10NL/ 5NL and 2NL, same mixture of calling stations and maniacs. I've played about 1k hands in the past 24 hours at 2nl and am netting about 13bb/ 100 hands. I know this is a small sample but I feel free. The money does not matter at all. I don't care about the money, I only want to play well. In fact I de-selected the bet & pot amounts so all I see are chips on the table. I am actually enjoying the process and am thinking about equity vs ranges and stack sizes and realizing that value-towning means betting when they're calling but laying down when they're raising. My preflop raises are bigger and I am surprised how the decisions have become simpler.

I have such a long way to go. I still know virtually nothing about poker but I am no longer a nervous wreck when I play. It may not be the beginning of the end but I hope it is the end of the beginning.

There's nothing wrong w/ being humble. That's actually 1 of the best qualities you can have as a poker player.

Keep playin' well & GL on your mission

Congrats, but stop folding solid starting hands on the BTN.

^^ yep, 'specially at the start. Ya also need some arrogance/confidence, but I find that comes back quickly enough.

Sounds to me you have what it takes to become great. Realizing ones mistakes is a big factor, people tend to refuse to believe they made an error. Everytime i loose a hand, i ask myself-"what could i have done different to win the hand?", not my opp got lucky. And everything else sound like you are on the right road, gl.

Hmmm. Im actually the opposite. Honesty IS the best policy.

I never really thought I was good. I always did (and still do) picture myself as a terribad player. Always looking for leaks and observing others play in relation to my own.


In my past experience w/ work or whatever this approach has always benefited me greatly. Even when I was out-performing others I was still micro managing myself and continously looking for ways to improve.

Hopefully it begins to pay off for me in the poker world soon.

If you really want to learn how to play postflop, I guess you could do with switching to 6-max. There you can't just nit it up and wait for premium hands. You will have to learn to be aggressive pre-flop and follow up with continuation bets postflop on the right types of board. I've learnt a lot more playing 18k hands in 6max than I have playing 40K hands FR.

Update: 2NL (past 48 hours)

1691 hands (running 3 tables at a time: 111 hands/ hr)
Win rate: 16.91 BB/ 100

Again, small sample but good trend, Generally running VP 11/12 PFR 8/9. Standard Preflop raise is 5-6 BB. Playing ABC. Not trying to get cute. Misplayed a few hands including shoving over a c-bet with 88 on a 6 high board vs. opp. with 24/18 stats who happened to have QQ. Otherwise I felt like my reads were good. One thing I did, which I wonder what any of you think is I showed my premiums if I won without a showdown to establish table image but never got around to bluffing with that image. I am still a little gunshy from my bad run so not sure if this is a good idea or just a waste of time??

No point in doing this really cause people aren't paying that much attention.

Post the hand where you had 88 in the HA section and see what kind of feedback you get. It will probs help how you look at what plays you're making and why you're making them. You may know it was the wrong play but you might not know the reason why and the fact that you lost(or sometimes won) affects the way you think about your plays.

im right there with you fx, i played nitty preflop and then hyper aggro post flop... i have the same exact problem haha, and i too have dropped down in stakes

keep me updated with your progress as ill be grinding the micro tables as well lol

Since it is a continuation of the this thread I'll post the hand here. Also There are a few minor details I got wrong. 1st Villain's stats were 41/15 (not 24/18) with a 3bet % of 7. Also the flop was 5 high.

Full Tilt - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com
Hero (LP): $1.56
CO: $2.00
BTN: $1.70
SB: $2.00
BB: $2.43
UTG: $1.05
UTG+1: $2.44
MP: $1.97
MP+1: $2.00
SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02
Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has 8d 8s
fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.12, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10
Flop: ($0.37, 3 players) 3d 5d 2h
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $0.20, BB raises to $0.90, fold, Hero raises to $1.44 and is all-in, BB calls $0.54
Turn: ($3.25, 2 players) Kc
River: ($3.25, 2 players) Kh
Hero shows 8d 8s (Two Pair, Kings and Eights)
BB shows Qc Qd (Two Pair, Kings and Queens)
BB wins $3.04

To me, there's nothing wrong with the flop play. Villain might be limping with any junk and we raised there to both isolate and sometimes for value.

The flop, however, was super wet and could hit a lot of hands that BB and UTG+1 can have. You are way behind overpair and can't really beat much. (Even drawing hands like two overs and flush draws, which might have raised the flop as a semi-bluff, were ahead of you). So by shoving you will only get the hands that you beat anyway to fold and to induce those that already beat you to call, a very losing play.

The other thing I like about that hand apart from preflop isolation was your bet-sizing on the flop. Two-thirds of the pot is just about perfect, as it is more than enough to deny naked flush draws odds to draw already. No need to click that "pot" button every time you value bet when you have middling-strength hands on the flop.

Once again, never worry about advanced concepts that will rarely matter in micros. (Balancing your 3 bet and c-bet ranges, switching gears, to name just a few). Instead focus on fat value betting, learn what type of flops to c-bet, and abuse position like crazy.

One more thing, I suggest you use pokertableratings.com to check both your stats and its useful "grader", which evaluates your plays in comparison with the winning players at a particular stake.

GL at the tables.

Since I dropped down to 2NL (FR) 3 days ago here are my numbers.

54 table sessions
MT ratio: 2.65 (generally running 2-4 tables)
14.75 hrs
2897 hands
Amt Won: $ 11.86
BB/ 100 hands: 28.97

I'm playing tight, very tight. My default opening hand chart has been in a state of evolution since I started playing and now it is:

EP: AA KK QQ JJ TT AKs AQs
MP: 99 88 77 AJs ATs AQo KQs KJs
LP: 77 66 55 A9s A8s AJo ATo KTs K9s KQo KJo
Button: Any pp, Any Suited Ace, A8o+.Any two Broadway, K7s+, suited connectors QJs-76s, 2 gappers QTs-86s.

I no longer will open raise a pot before I get to the button without a pair, an Ace or a King. That means no opening QJs/ QTs/ JTs from MP/LP.

Standard preflop raise is 5BB+ 1BB per limper from EP/MP and Pot sized from LP/ Button. When 3betting I typically make the raise 4x the original bet.


From the button I will flat a raise with no callers with the following:

pps: 22-99
Suited Aces: AQs-ATs
Suited Kings: KQs-KTs
Suited Connectors: QJs-76s


3betting is villain specific. Without reads or history it is TT+, AK. Otherwise I have 3bet super aggro types with pps down to 77 and a wide range of decent Aces and Kings.

On strong draws and IP I will call a flop c-bet but will not go past the turn if the hand does not improve; i.e. I fold Naked Flush draws to a turn bet unless I pick up a pair or an OESD.

I c-bet nearly 100% when OOP. 1/2 pot in dry boards, 2/3 on wet. I'll fold any pair except AA KK to a re-raise when OOP. I'll take my chances with AA KK so if I get stacked; good hand and move on. IP I'll take the free card if I have a weak draw, call a raise with a strong one. Otherwise I'm re-raising any hand I took the lead on preflop if there is only one overcard to my pair. This works about 80% of the time, even with 88 on an Ace high flop. I don't slowplay Big overpairs and Sets, I want to get the money in.

My graph line has stopped nosediving and started ticking up a little but it is a long way back to zero.

I like everything about this thread. Keep it up.

So the problem with posting this hand here is that we already know the result and its hard to give advice when you're swayed by knowing the results. Always post a hand up to the point where you want help with a decision. So in this hand you would put it to the point where you got raised 4.5x on the turn and say HERO??? or something like that.


So I like the raise PF and the c bet is a good size too. When you get raised here try to think of a range of hands they might do this with. I would guess that the range of hands that will do this has you crushed.

You dont give much in the way of reads on said player and how many hands you have on him....

So he is deff loose, calls your PFR and c/r you on the flop. I would think 2 pair, sets and some big combo draws are a big part of his range. He may have even flopped the st8 here. Over pairs are kinda discounted though cause he didnt 3 bet it and he has shown ability to 3 bet.

I would deff fold here cause he has QQ LDO.

Be very careful with hands like K10, KJ, QJ.

Absolutely. Unless villain is a maniac I will not call a raise or re-raise with any dominated hand (including AQ). I will open with these hands in LP but fold to a raise. If I pair the K I want to take it down on the flop. If I encounter any resistance I'll ditch it unless I have a strong draw to go with it. When I flat call IP with suited hands like KJs ATs I realize that I can't really play these hands fast as TP type hands, rather I am looking for the straight ot flush. The trickiest flop to play with these is when I make 2 pair because any 2 broadway that makes 2 pair could also give an opponent a straight draw and my postflop skills are not good enough yet to play these situations well.

Thanks

Update on 2NL after week one:

4585 hands
Amt won: $ 10.13
BB/100 Hands: 11.04

I did actually backslide a little for two days until today but realized I was falling into old habits and caught myself.

I thought I'd post a graph of my winnings on FT. I started playing 2NL at hand 43493. It's easy to spot, its' the point where I stop plummeting.

My losses are smaller now, I get stacked far less often, in part because I put my stack at risk a lot less often. The big skill I have finally acquired in the past week has nothing to do with postflop play. It is this; I don't play when I'm tired or angry or there are too many distractions going on or when I should be tending to my kids. I also try to limit my sessions to an hour at a time, because after an hour I start to lose some sharpness. I am comfortable playing 3 tables at once but once I open that 4th table I start to lose more so right now I'm ok with 3. I also play less per day, maybe 250-400 hands during the work week. On weekends I'll play double that. My next goal is to be able to work on putting opponents on a range of hands and calculating my equity in the pot vs that range. I'm going to order the Poker Math That Matters book recommended by WVHillbilly tomorrow when I get paid.

Attached Images

Amount Won over Hands Played for fx20736.jpg (18.1 KB, 202 views)

Nice thread, whats wrong with 2nl ? lol

I've been playing online for about 6 months now and I have never played a hand at another stake, I know nothing else. Some people tell me that I should get out of there as soon as possible, which I will probably do once my bankroll is big enough for 5nl.

Glad to see that there are other players on here who are also grindin the 01/02.

I would also like to say I'm a fan of your methodical way of playing the game (I disagree on the whole charts thing however, you might just slightly be overdoing it), it's good to have someone less lazy than me on here to write down some of the things I notice and then forget 2 sessions later, keep it up man.

Good luck and hope to see you playing higher stakes in the future, I'll try and keep up.

I am now 10,936 hands into my 2NL play. My win rate is 4.41 BB/ 100 hands. My $ amt won is 9.65 although I have am down a little over 1 buy in over the last 7 days.

the things I have learned in the past few weeks are:

• the importance of emotional control, to not lose even more money when you are running bad. It is emotionally brutal to have lost several hands when you are favorite only to get re-raised again and feel so beat up that you shove screaming that there is no way you are beat AGAIN. Guess again. This is real pain.
• to have faith in math
• to make proper bet sizes. On dry flops usually 1/2 pot, on wet 2/3, then 1/2 pot on turn and 1/4 pot value bet on river. I can't believe how many players will call to the final card and then give up to a small river bet when they miss their draw.
• to not try and bust bad players
• to fold QQ JJ AK vs strong preflop aggression.
• to stop checking the turn. I can't believe I have won at showdown with K7 over K6 by firing 3 barrels. I guarantee I check/ folded hundreds of winning hands in the past.
• to understand that if an opponent calls your pf raise, calls your c-bet and bets or raises you on the turn that they have you beat if all you have is one pair.
• That 2 pair is actually a pretty weak hand and loses a lot.
• that calls mean nothing at 2nl but raises usually mean what they seem to represent.

Hey Fx,

Not a bad winrate, keep it up.

A few thoughts about your thoughts :

- I'm exactly the same, stubborness is in my own opinion my biggest weakness at the tables, in my head somehow fish can't have monsters.

- Working on the math part, doesn't come naturally yet but I'm getting there, not sure it's of extreme importance at this level, but always good to prepare for higher stakes.

- Bet sizes is important, I usually try and factor in board texture, opponent type. From then on hand strength can be used to, I like to bet big against a calling station on quite a lot of boards with top pair decent kicker for example.

- For QQ, JJ, AK, it depends on the opponent you're playing against. You should be licking your chops with QQ and AK against a maniac who just 4 bet you, doesn't mean he can't have better, but most of the time you're ahead.

- turn play is quite complicated, saying you will never check the turn again is dangerous, but you're right you should be double barreling quite often.

- See baluga theorem somewhere ...

- Again depends on the opponent, against anyone even mildly fishy and passive it can be the nuts.

I am liking this thread. I have my first 5.5k tracked hands on Hem. I wish I was winning but am currently -$9. QQ KK AA have each lost some buyins.

One thing I need to avoid is worrying about the $9, some days ago I was up a few bucks, and as I play im hanging out for the big hands that will put me back into the black.

Cheers

have you read the Little Green Book by phil gordon?

Its a good one that I highly recommend but its more for beginners/beginner-intermediate and i'm not sure of your skill level

I did read it awhile ago. It's pretty good,athough if I remember it seems like he is more of a tournament player but like Gordon I like to play pretty tight.

Just curious?? What happened to the should move up now to .5nl post?? I still stand by 100 BI per level to move up....or at least 100,000 hands at each level.

My BR as of this morning is $ 103 (51 BI). Once I get it to around $ 130-135 I will move up to 5nl. Since I am 12 tabling @ 2nl I am thinking of 6 tabling 5nl for awhile to make sure I'm doing ok and build up some hand histories, although I do have about 40k hands @ 5nl so there should be plenty of those regs still around.

Were you on early today? Could have sworn I saw your Id around 6am.

Nope. Was not on i play .01-.02 right now. But i will be on shortly

wow dude thats crazy. My head would explode if I had to play 2nl until I got to $500. I started at 2nl and am currently playing 25nl(yes i am rolled for it under the 20bi BRM rule, I started with $5 and have never deposited some i'm not constantly adding money) and I've only played maybe 130k hands in my online poker career.

IMO if you have at least 20BIs for 5nl and you're beating 2nl move up.

I didn't create the rule Dusty Schmidt says that you should have 100 BI for the level you play at i believe....

100buyins.JPG (http://www.cardschat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33620&d=1289163461)

losss.JPG (http://www.cardschat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33621&d=1289163461) Here this is what he says and see he has had a huge buy in loss.So take it for what it's worth.

Dusty,

I feel honored that you have graced my OP with your presence. Your book is on my wishlist. (I'm just trying to fonush Q-tip's book first)

take note of the stakes that leatherass is playing. I agree that when playing higher limits you need much more than 20 buy-ins but at these stakes 20BIs is enough especially if youre beating the current limit that you're at

Yes, your totally right. Move up as soon as possible go for it. Good luck win lots. 20 BIns is more than enough to succeed. No need wasting time at .01-.02. Have fun

Fx , I just attached his qoutes from another thread he has.It wasn't Dusty telling you this..sorry for wrong impression.