A beginner at $0.02/0.04 limit tables

Hi all,

I'm still learning how to play poker and I've been trying to play at the very low stakes tables ($0.02/0.04 limited holdem) to get some experience.

I've been reading this forum with all my attention, making notes of the important tips, making notes of my hands and learning a lot from my mistakes. So far, I've been doing ok I think. I'm starting to build my bankroll slowly but steadily.

But it seems like I'm stucked right now.

I'm not sure if I'm just being very unlucky or if I need to learn how to deal with those especific tables. The problem is, in the past days, I was unfortunate enough to see my AA, KK, AK being beaten by straights using 75, 54 off suit! I raised preflop all the time but because "it's only $0.02", most of the players go for it and end up having all the luck. I used to think that they were just lucky that time but it seems like its turning to something more frequent and now I'm scared to death when I've got an AA in my hands.

I've been trying to be a tight player and only play premium cards. When I try to play connected cards or something like Q8, K9 I always regret later. I try to chase only if it's cheap, otherwise I fold.

So I'm here to learn from you all if I'm doing something terrible wrong or if I need to have some kind of different strategies to play in those tables. Any advice, input and comments will be very appreciated.

Thank you so much in advance.

Maya

From what you're saying, it sounds like you're doing it right. I think you're smart to start at $0.02/$0.04. In fact, you should be able to build your bankroll from there, without ever having to deposit again. Just move up in limits when you reach a comfortable bankroll size.

Now, as for the suckouts (when a player with an inferior hand stays in a pot and miraculously manages to win), they happen. In fact, they happen pretty often. But they don't (or shouldn't) happen often enough to make the bad players win money in the long run. What you need to do is keep being aggressive preflop with strong hands, and bet whenever you have a solid hand postflop. The money will come your way.

Keep us updated on how it's going, too.

I would stay there at the limit tables. I once HAD $100 and was doing fine on the $0.50/$1 to get more points and played tight if I didnt have nuts fold played blinds mostly like 98% of the hands until I reached $180 I stupidly went no limit $.50/$1 it was then I lost all and had some explaining to do with the wife. Play tight. I like the old saying from someone I can't remember "build your stack while conserving your stack".

Stay away from no limit.

I haven't had much luck at the .02/.04 limit tables either but at least you don't lose a lot in a short period of time.

It sounds like you're on the right track, Maya. keep playing your game the way you are, and eventually things will turn around. Everyone hits a bad streak every now and then. The trick is learning how to ride it out. Sometimes taking a couple of days off from playing helps, too. Unfortunately, in those micro-limit type games, you have a lot of newbies who are just taking a gamble rather than applying skill and strategy like yourself. If your bankroll can handle it, why not move up to the $.05/$0.10?

LOL, how big a bankroll do you need to play 5c/10c?

Maya, if you feel you are making progress, but are having problems dealing with the limpers (micro limits are the same as play money in reality), then I would make a proper deposit and play $0.25/0.50 (or even $0.5/1). This is still considered low limit, but you will start to be able to guess what hands people have from their betting patterns, and pull off bluffs a bit better. Still be prepared to get your fair share of bad beats though!

Maya,

Welcome to the board. Stu Ungar, a three time world champion, once said "I've got no chance in 5-10 limit poker, no chance at all". He meant that he couldn't do as well in small limit hold em (well small for him).

The fact is that in microlimit games you're going to be constantly up against loose players and while you may be a favorite against each of them individually, you won't be a favorite against them all as a group. When your comfortable start moving up in limits. My experience is that .25/.50 is a good limit as players are less inclined to come in to a raised pot with any 2 cards.

One other suggestion: try very small buy in tournaments. Players aren't as loose in tournaments, especially without rebuys. You may find your results improve.

i do agree with count small buy in tournaments are good and there is a lot of them from one table to multi-table be patient

sorry I played like 98% of the blinds.

Thank you ALL so much for your kind advices!

I read them all many times and I'll look into small tournaments tables, just to watch and see how I'd feel. I'm still not comfortable moving to bigger limits. Mostly because I'm still trying to sort out my feelings when I have losses. It still hits me hard even if it's $1 or so.

I won't make any change of plans right now because I'm under this dark cloud of bad streak. Instead I'll be thinking about what you all said and watching the other tables.

I played a bit today (limit $0.02/0.04) and won one hand with 4 of kind (3) and then lost a 3 of kind (QQQ) for a higher kicker. Hell.

Anyway, thank you so much for your help! If you have any more advices to give please do so, they will be very welcome!

Maya

Keep ya head up and IIKakimaa ( keep trying)

Check out the articles section - you may find things that will help you, there.

Maya,

Seem like you were where I was a little while back. Nano limits like 1/2 penny, 2/4 penny, and 5/10 penny can be a rollercoaster ride for relatively new play. You play tight solid poker and don't seem to get very far. But, whether the storm. The long run will bare out your proper play.

It may take a while but, you will see you good hands paid off more often.

I would suggest you pick up Phil Helmuths book "Play like the Pros". Pay close attention to how he suggests playing the top 10 hands. It's very aggressive.

I at first was pretty frightened trying to play this way. Raising with 77 and AQ didn't exactly thrill me. I thought it was rather reckless. But, It turns out that in the long run the playing top 10 hands is a pretty valueable strategy.

People take notice when you play a few hands. The take even more notice when you play those hands very aggressively. And when you show down and win with those big hands they start to worry about bumping heads with you.

Even just playing an hour session you can gain respect and put fear into the other players. Even at 2/4 penny this can happen.

I am far best player here. I am playing at 2/4 penny as well. Good luck. Be patient. Especially in Nanolimits. That is a very important thing to do.

Don't lose the faith. When people play those 5/7 off suits they are being idiots, but it happens all the time. It even happens in the Brick and mortar casinos with 3/6 limit! Its scarry sometimes to see the way people throw around money. But keep playing tight aggressive. They'll play a 5/7o and you'll play AK and you'll take them for more than they sucked out on you with. Don't let bad beats get you down. You're playing right. Dont' resort to playing trash hands with them. Stick to the good ones, AA KK AK any pocket pair (untill the flop, if you don't hit consider throwing it away) and suited connectors, and depending on position, AQ, AJ, AT KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, and JT. Don't put alot of faith in those last hands, though, and be prepared to throw them away if you don't hit. You can count on your A being better than their A because you're playing better poker.

also, remember that any straight flopped with JT is hte nuts... dunno why i said that, but its true.

... which is why you also need to bet and raise if you pair your ace. If you hold AK (or AQ) and flop a pair of aces, you need to bet and raise a flop that contains an ace. People will call a flop bet with anything, and you should make good use of that: Make them pay to see a turn that won't help them.

Playing ABC-poker should get you smoothly up to $.50/$1-tables. From there, you may need some fine tuning. Luckily, we have a hand analysis section where you can post and ask for help.

Thank you for those valuable advices!

In the past two days I've noticed a big difference in my game play after reading the advices from here and the articles too. I got to recover the money I lost ($2 ) and now I understand when you say about the respect. After few showdowns with premium cards some players do respect you more when you raise. There was one occasion that I won a hand and this player wrote in the chat "I had you beaten but I folded". And I laughed and didn't answer anything but in my mind I knew I was finally playing it right.

I'm being more careful choosing the tables too. I watch the table for a while and if there's a bully there or too many crazy bluffers, I'm out. At least for now, I only stay on a table that I few comfortable and confident, otherwise I know I'll not play my best.

I still have a huge LOT to learn. I'm searching for books now, that Phil Helmuths is on the list. Does anyone happen to know any other good book specific for online poker?

Thanks a lot!

Maya

I like Helmuth's book, but I think you would probably do even better with some book that's more specific to low limit hold'em. Two books that come highly recommended (but none of which I've actually read myself) are

Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit Hold'em":
Amazon.com: Winning Low-Limit Hold'em (9781886070233): Lee Jones: Books

Ed Miller's "Getting Started in Hold'em":
Amazon.com: Getting Started in Hold 'em (9781880685341): Ed Miller: Books

Now, since I haven't read them myself I can't say which one is better. But I have read Ed Miller's "Small Stakes Hold'em", which is sort of the sequel to the one above (with more advanced concepts and finer tuned play for winning the maximum amount of money in limit hold'em), and that one I can highly recommend. But read one of the two above first, really.

Depending on how studious you are, "Theory of Poker" (by David Sklansky) is a must-read. Not as a first book, but you shouldn't wait with it too long, because having read it will give you a better understanding of what the other books teach you, making them more valuable.

And if you're serious about limit hold'em (and there's no reason you shouldn't be) you probably want to pick up Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players eventually. That's aimed more for the higher limit play, though, and until you reach $10/$20, SSHE by Ed Miller will last you just fine.

Lots of books out there, but if you want to go with limit hold'em, this is my recommendation.

Even at the .50/1$ table people call you with nearly anything, and in my experience at brick and mortar casinos (not too sure about online play) as high up as 3/6 people call you with any 4 to a Flush, or straight, or medium or bottom pair, and they'll call you down to the river to "keep you honest" Thats what you want when you play tight. Playing AK against A7 is what you want, its where you'll make your money.

Maya, that is good advice you give yourself. Only play where you are comfortable, but don't shy away from maniacs. They are the best players to win money from, and you'll win big. Those "crazy bluffers" are going to raise into your AK with their K4. They may draw out on you, but thats okay. You will more than make up for that when they raise you on the river and you have the nuts. But the key is confidence. If you don't believe you can win, you will lose.

well this is an interseting thread. The fact of the matter is until you can hammer the nano table moving up the limits will do nothing at all for your game. Up as far as $1/$2 some people will play anything. You should play your premium cards hard and fast and learn to fold when your beat.

As regards N/L vs Limit games, its a toughie, the beats are tougher of course in N/L but when you know holdem very well thats where the real money is.

Set yourself definate goals and stick to them, use softwaree like pokertracker to fix holes and you should find your bankroll growing, its a slow process but a worthwhile one.

If you want to become better at poker, you have to realize that you can't always play by the book and expect to win. Sure you can only play premium hands that have a high EV of winning, but poker isn't just about playing the cards. You have to play the players too. I suggest watching the table stats before sitting down at a table. If you see that 70% of the players are seeing the flop, then this table is pretty much a crapshoot and you should stay away. If you see a table where about 29-33% of the players are seeing the flop, then this is a good table to sit at, and you can play tight and show profit in the long run. Also don't be afraid to make continuation bets! (a continuation bet is where you bet after the flop after making a preflop raise)

At 2/4 penny you are lucky if you see 55% let alone 33%. LOL.

But, it is a valid point.

I have come to the conclusion that it is better to play tighter tables when you are still working on the kinks and leaks in your game.

Lose tables can be way to much of a roller coaster ride.

A brief update on me:

I left those micro-limit tables for good now that I found out the Wonderful World of Sit'n'Go Tournaments ($0.25 and $0.50 buy-ins)!

Now all the strategies I read in the articles and advices here make much more sense.

I also bought the books "Harrington on Hold'em" Volumes 1 & 2, by Dan Harrington. They are great books and there's so much new information for me, so many things to learn and memorize.

I've been keeping a track of my game in a Excell spreedsheet and so far I'm happy with my performance, bearing in mind that in the first weeks I was very very inexperienced in tournaments. Here's my performance so far:

Number of tournament played: 228
1st places: 8%
2nd places: 21%
3rd places: 25 %
> 4th places (no prizes): 46%

It's not great, I know that. But I'm still very pleased that I'm doing ok and learning more on each tournament. And most important, I'm having lots of fun and I'm still having a little profit.

Thank you all for the tips, encouragement and ideas!

Maya

Looks like you've got a severe case of Seconditus (or Thirditus). 18 wins, 48 2nds. You need to open up in the Final stages, push more hands, and not focus on just placing and just limping into the money. Even if you placed less often, if you increased the win rate you'll make more money.

Sit & Goes were the answer for you all along, im surprised nobody mentioned them.
Those 2cent/4cent will ruin your game and make you a bad player.
I am glad to hear you are out of them.
Harringtons books are good value but remember that he mainly speaks of multi table tourns early middle and late.
I see you cash 50% of the time, nothing wrong with that my friend, in fact well done to you.
I am not sure if your SNG earnings are playing Limit or No Limit, but if they are limit i would suggest you progress to No Limit SNGs for the same entry fee and get a feel of things.
Harringtons logic will seem a lot easier to you then.

Limit poker is a world apart from No Limit and the 2 must never be confused with each other when advice is being handed out.

There has been some good advice regarding this thread, but there are times when clearity of limits/formats advice has become clouded.

I really like the attitude and commitment you have shown so far with regards to knowing where you are in your poker journey and can only see good things for you in the future.

Never stray from your charts and notes and work towards memory being your biggest assett.

look forward to hearing from you in times to come.

zinzan1000

I'd 2nd the picking tables with high % seeing the flop. That way the hands you play will have more money in the pot.

You'll have some bad runs, and you can't just push people off a pot as you may be able to in No Limit, so at the low stakes you will take a fair few losses where you started with the best hand.

The thing to do is develop your reads so you can fold your hand if you know you're beat and don't have many outs, and then on average you should build your bankroll. Look at your bankroll over a longer-term than just one session.

There's some argument for playing No Limit at those kinds of stakes - people who just can't be pushed off a pot are great when you can put all your money in when you're a big favourite... but you risk losing more as well.

Zinzan1000, I've been playing No Limit SNG, everytime I go All-In I feel close to a heart attack. I'm still reading the second volume of Harrington's book and my game has been improving little by little. I've tried a couple of MTTs too and last week I got a 6th and a 9th places and I'm pleased with that. Of course I still make lots of mistakes but the difference is that now I know what I've done wrong. I'll keep practicing. Thanks for your kind words and encouragement.

robwhufc and starfall, thank you for your inputs.

Maya

Hey Maya, way to go.
Glad to hear you are doing ok.
There is a long road ahead and it is always wise to take one step at a time and not rush into anything that might spoil all your hard work so far.
The poker tables will always be there for you when you want them.

zinzan1000 be lucky

I'd disagree with the 70% crapshoot idea... you'll have greater swings at that table, as your superior hand won't hold up that often, but on that same table you'll equally get those same players staying in pots with 2nd or 3rd pair. When you play AK, then you have to be aware that you need to catch an Ace or King on the flop to have a decent chance of winning. However, the large number of players can mean that suited connectors or AX suited have more value because the pot odds are better for seeing the flop to see if you hit a draw. I generally find those very loose tables the most profitable, because when you get a premium hand you can raise all the way being called by people chasing hands that still won't win.

Hello all
I'm relatively new to poker
and have only been playing for real money for a few weeks.

Reading Maya's notes made me think of how similar my situation is at the moment

I played for play money for a while until I was winning regularly before switching to a money account.

I have been playing the micro limit $0.02/$0.04 tables no limit texas hold'em.

I try to play real good tight-aggressive poker, and have found that my discipline was paying off at times.

2 weeks ago I had a bankroll of around $38 managed to keep it there. Today i went down to about $29! To be honest, I've had a couple of days without any real premium cards, and when I have I've been beaten my some other loser who goes all in on 5,6 and hits the straight!

Same old story lol.

My plan was to stick with my $40 bankroll and try to build it to $100 and maybe $200 before moving up the stakes.

I thought it best to start from the bottom as I want to play good poker and EARN my bankroll before moving up.

After the past few days I'm not sure whether I will build a bankroll from the low stake tables over the long run.

I have read all replies to Maya and found them very usefull. I'm sure that my situation is practically the same but any advice would be most welcome.

thanks

JC

Reading this thread has been very interesting for me. I come from the other (no limit) side. I put $10 in January and through my ups and downs am now currently sitting on a $50 bankroll. I have played essentially all 0.01/0.02 nl holdem on pokerstars as well as a few sngs and HU sngs. My luck in ring games is deffinitly far higher than in sngs I find, so I stick to ring games. Whenever im all in during sngs I am consistently sucked out. Just keep up the bankroll management and you will be fine eventually as long as you play +ev poker. I have had $15 downswings (just came off one) but if you stick to your game you will build back up. I was wondering at what point I should consider taking a shot at 0.02/0.05. I may take a shot once I hit 60, and play until I go up, or move back down if I hit $50 again.

Playing in the micros is almost a skill unto itself. Just remember, that these same people who call you with trash will also pay you off when you hit the nuts. That should more than make up for the variance of getting multiple bet-callers into the same pot.

I also a novis I agree on your on your strategy and try to play the same way. What I run short on is patience. Also if I can make it passed the beggining rounds of all in without having to do the same myself.I play at Doyles Room alot.They have single table sit-go's starting at .09+.02.I,m starting to get a very little nest egg to start moving up.