Attacking small stack question.

This is a situation i often get into and would be interested to get other people's opinion. When you are SB and small stack is in BB, and the blinds are up, what hand do you need call/raise, knowing that they are pot committed (eg blinds are 300/600, opponent has 1,200 chips so only has 600 left)? Obviously i'm not talking about and AA hand, but would you go all in with J5 for example? - what hands are likely to be better than the average hand your opponent has?

Assuming that you've got a healthy stack and 1200 chips well covered - anything. 9-2o, anything to eliminate a player. Only thing is I wouldnt call, i'd just put him all-in. Put the other player at the decision (which is already made for him obviously!).

If you want specific's, i'd definately play any suited connector, or anything about Q high, even if they have a little more than 3x the BB - but only if it wouldnt hurt my tourny life.

If you did have 9 2, wouldn't folding be a better bet to save you 900 chips? Say you had 5000 chips, what sort of hand would you be going all in with with that stack?

For an extra BB i'd take him on with anything I was dealt.... I want my opponents chips and i'd prefer to chance 900 out of 5k than give him an easy 900 and a chance at another orbit.

Depends on what kind of action is happening around the table. If everyone at the table folds to me and the BB, then i'm putting him all in regardless of what I am holding. Why? He is the BB, chances of him holding anything solid is very slim. So at worst I would be in a coinflip situation. Watching opponents in MTT's, they are more willing to be blinded out then to go out on a shitty hand. So, chances are you will have bet him out of the hand, because this is not the hand that he feels he can double up with. So you stole his blind, crippled his stack, or at worst got called and are in a coinflip. Your odds of taking the pot in this situation are far greater than any other situation.

I agree you're getting better than evens because you've already paid SB, but you're not a coin flip against the vast majority of hands with 2 4 are you? Would you bet with ANY 2 cards even though you are putting up a quarter of your stack? I would fold a garbage hand and lose 300 rather than call/raise and commit 1,200. Personally i think the cut off is round about Jack high - that gives you a level chance of being ahead pre-flop.

I'm assuming it's folded around to you. You have to look at this as you would any heads up situation. In those cases Q8 is considered the average hand. I might up tighten up a bit in this case though. Why give him even odds? Most short stacks would love a coin flip.

If you are looking at the situation only based on pot odds(you need a 37.5% chance to win against a random hand), then you are correct to push any 2 suited cards(exept 24s and 23s), any hands where you have a 9 or better highcard, 83, and any hand where the lowest card is a 4. Ofcourse since this is tournament play, you also need to take your own stack size, how close to the money you are and the payout structure into consideration, so the mathematically correct answer may not always be the best choice.

Myself, unless I have a half decent hands (pocket pair, two face cards, any connectors above a 5 or 6) I am not going to attack. In this case, playing A-x or K-x may also be an option as well as any face card-suited. The reason for that is I probably don't have a good change of winning otherwise so why throw my chips away and allow the small stack to double up??

Yep, that's the scenario - it's folded round to you, you know that if you dont fold the SB will put you all in (if he /she has any sense), you dont need to worry about reads etc - it's a simple guesstimate, on the balance of probabilities is the hand I hold better than the average hand my opponent holds? Using Q8 as an average hand, I suppose you can work back on a sort of sliding scale depending on how much the SB is in relation to their stack size.

This is the info i was after - where did you get the random hand figures?

Because he is pretty much forced to go all in, if you've got A4 for instance, you're probably 8 or 9 times out of 10 going to be ahead pre-flop, and you're getting more than even money on your bet. Of course you dont want to double him up, but you do want the additional 1,000 or so chips dont you?!

I have also often thought about this, Rob - nice thread

I think the biggest thing here is the fact that you should be the aggressor; pushing forces him to make a tough decision - he doesn't want to put his tournament life on the line with a garbage hand. Though in this situation, i think he's right to call with any hand (the 72 factor); you never want to voluntarily give yourself so few chips that a double up would still only give you an M of like 1 or 2.

I wouldn't disagree with pushing with anything here, especially if he is a passive player or an inexperienced player, because he will often fold.

Rob: Here is why I would take on small stack with ANY 2 cards. If the blinds are at 300/600 and my chipstack is only sitting at 5K, then i'm below my desired 10X BB and I have got to make a move to try and improve my situation also.

Big stack has folded the hand, so if you push BB all in, you don't run the risk of being bullied post flop. Pushing all in forces your opponent to make a choice on whether he wants to go out of the tourney with THIS hand. More times than not, he will fold because he knows he is likely to hit a better hand down the road. And if he does call, you are not the one risking your tourney life. This is your best opportunity to try and improve your situation without being bullied into poor choices post flop.

I use http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...tionEditor.jsp for stuff like this, because it's the only calculator that lets you type in a random hand. You can also use it for other kinds of poker than texas hold'em, so it's a great tool.

Edit: If you know all the details of the tournament you can also use the tournalyzer to determine the best choice on a numerous situations.

Okay, let's assume hero has 5k, villain 1.2k, blinds 300/600. Hero has 72o.

equity (%)
Hand 1 (72o): 34.5836 %
Hand 2 (random): 65.4164 %

EV [fold]: 4700 (you lose 300 chips)

EV [push]: (0.346*6200)+(0.654*3800) = 2145 + 2485 = 4630

(- 34.6% of the time you gain 1200 chips, giving you 6200 total.
- 65.4% of the time you lose 1200 chips, giving you 3800 total.)

So it's close. Certainly push with any paint, anything suited, and anything connected (probably excepting 32o/43o). Even with something like T4o it's mathematically correct to push, so push anything except a select few terrible hands (32o, 72o, 63o etc).

If villain is an uberdonk and you think there's even a 5% chance of him folding, push any two.

If there is an ante, push any two.

I skipped most of this thread, but for the OP, the "AVERAGE" hand is Q-9.
That should help you make some decisions.

isn't the 'average' hand Q7? ('computer hand')?
not to hijack the thread, but it does apply to the strategy here...

In the Titan Saturday and Sunday games, it's often the case that you have a 5,000 stack, blinds are 300/600, there are 5 or 6 players left, and you're the chip leader with less than 10 BB!

That's the whole thing with online poker...i haven't really played b&m games, but i'm assuming the blind structure is a hell of alot slower - 1/2 hour blinds maybe?
when the chipleader has less than 10BBs, it's a bloody crapshoot - it shouldn't be that way
This actually gave me an idea...maybe we could do a special event with deepstacks and longer blinds
sorry to hijack the thread rob - just rambling

I actually disagree with the the original response, it is all dependent on what stage the tournament is in. If your near the bubble steal it with anything, at most other stages they are almost forced to call with any 2. So near bubble do it, otherwise fold your worst hands.