Here we go again, this situation has come up a few times today and i really want someone elses opinion,

What value ( pre-flop ) would you put on two high conecting cards, un-suited lets say, heres the specific "for example":

Early in a tourney, your mid position, 2nd after the BB and 3 before the button. Your dealt KcQd, the two in front of you call the BB. Everyone is about even in chips and the BB is about 5% of your stack. Whats the move here?

Gonna put a poll up, just for those who cant be bothered writing a huge answer!

I'd really like to know the reason for the "fold" vote, whoever voted that one, come forth and explain, PLEASE!

I would either just call or fold, QK unsuited is an OK hand but not a premium one and your postion is not a good one to be playing it for a raise, unless you have set yourself up already as tight agressive player then you can raise and probally steal the blinds.

g/l

KQ is a very good hand from any position. The two calls before you were just that, calls, not raises, and probably represent an average starting hand from those positions, maybe a small pair. There's a good chance most of the remaining players will sit out. But lets say you get another caller allong with 1 & 2, not a reraise. Your getting 3:1 odds. For that, I'll take my chances with KQ.

I voted for "double the big blind" but that isn't a definite answer. If the table is kind of loose and fast, that's the play. At a table where the players are tight and stick to premium hands, I would probably cold call and look to improve on the flop. Pocket Aces are a concern, but with them, most likely you would have seen a raise. Same for Kings. The scare card on the board would be an Ace, and betting patterns plus prior hands played would let you know if someone hit top-pair with an Ace on the flop. If not, and a King or Queen hits, bet it out again to see where you stand in the hand. Be prepared to throw this hand away though even with its relative value. It can get you felted if not played properly in each respective case.

I'd love to be seated to the right of anyone who thinks this hand should be folded under the conditions described. My J,10 looks pretty good.

Folding this is bad? lol...there are 3 people that don't think so obviously.

I fold here... what if you limp or wussy min-raise here and all of the sudden the button pushes all-in, what do you do now???


Fold this hand here, KQ offsuit is not a PREMIUM hand AT ALL... the only time that is the case if maybe if you are heads up or real-shorthanded at a final table...


Lets say you call and you see a flop...

What happens if a K or Q flops? The two players in front of you bet and raise...what do you do???

KQ is a trouble hand... Im not calling here with it if its 5% of my stack to do so...

Originally Posted by chicubs1616

I fold here... what if you limp or wussy min-raise here and all of the sudden the button pushes all-in, what do you do now???

Oh well, your right of coarse. What was I thinking? I missed that part about knowing beforehand that the button was going all-in.

I missed that part about knowing beforehand that the button was going all-in.

You don't know that the button could raise behind, but in early position (UTG+1), with 5 people left to act behind you (3 before button +2 blinds) there is a fairly good chance you could get re-raised or multiple calls.

KQ offsuit is not the kind of hand that you want to have going into a multi-way pot...there are way too many hands that can beat you.

I agree with chi

I bet 1/4 of the stack. You will get rid of the dreamers with that bet*. KQ is a nice solid hand. A queen or king comes on the flop and you have a very nice kicker. If an ace hits without the jack or 10 then maybe you will have to rethink it.

I know it isn't QQ KK AA AK AQ but its a hand I play and win 75% of the time. Which btw is higher then my % with Pocket Aces











* Of course a lot of know nothing players might still play with crap cards cause they are dumb but I am talking intellegent ones,

I voted for fold too.

In a ring game I will usually raise with it; then I stand a reasonable chance of having position on 2 other players and may be able to get paid if I hit something. Of course if I get re-raised I'm probably going to have to fold, and if someone behind me calls I'm not going to know where I am even if I hit. But I reckon I'll show a small profit over time with this approach.

In a tournament this is too high risk. I want to conserve chips for when the blinds increase, and don't want to be blowing away up to a quarter of my stack on an adventure with rubbish like this out of position.

Interested to hear other opinions though!

Early in the tournament? Shoot you have so many people playing any crap they get. Cant play top 10 hands all the time. Well you can but it really isn't playing poker. Anyone can just play AA KK QQ AK AQ. But how often do you get those?

But everyone has their own choice. But I'd play'em and play'em hard

Oh my aching head!

You guys have got to be kidding me. If you raise, and someone pushes, like four dogs said, it isn't premium, so you get out of the way. You don't throw away a hand like that pre-flop because you're scared of what might happen. It doesn't get anymore donkish than that folks. The chances of someone raising you all-in, exist on any hand. And 7-2os can beat A-A every once in a while. So theoretically you should fold every hand. I agree with 4dogs, my head hurts now too.

I think this depends mainly on what kind of tournament you're playing in, where that tournament is, and what you've observed about the other players at the table. For example, early in a freeroll at Absolute Poker, there are lots of crazies who go all in on nothing (I'd say close to 25% of the people in the tournament). Not that you should fold it, but I wouldn't raise it either. This early, I wouldn't want to start blowing money on raises that I have a good chance of losing when someone goes all-in. On the other hand, at Noble Poker there are fewer players and they are mainly much tighter, so you could raise 2x BB. I know mainly about freerolls, so it's probably different in money buy-in tournaments.

There are situations where any of the above options are warranted. But, generally speaking it is either a cold-call or raise hand. Not a fold because of what someone else may do hand.

Cheers again all, i think all your answers are great and its helping my game no end.

I'm off now to compose my next "What Value" Thread!

Invaluble insite folks, keep it coming!

Im saying you fold KQ offsuit because its NOT a hand you want to get involved with at this point in a tournament. If you are using 5% of your stack to call a bet, you are using 10-20% to raise with it. I don't put that much value on a hand like KQ since the majority of the time here if you raise you will most likely get called.

If you hit your Q or K on the flop (which happens ~30% of the time by the way), you still might be beat by a better hand.

I play KQoff most of the time...this SITUATION is not one of those times...

Everyone who raises with KQ in this spot, I hope you come play at my tables.

I'm sorry, I guess I don't know how to play this game. Is there something inherently terrifying about this scenario? Let me get this straight. Your supposed to FOLD with 2 people LIMPING in in front of you? But the guy on the button is supposed to RERAISE with 2 LIMPERS and a RAISER in front of him? I'm going back to Parcheesi.

Hey guys,


Seems like a call is pretty obvious. If you get re-raised or pushed all-in then drop the hand if needs be. Who knows, you may flop KKQ and trap that guy slow playing his AA.

I think I'd raise between 3-4 times the bb.

An argument can be made for just calling. I like the raise because as others have pointed out, KQ is not a power house, and i'd like to 1) discourage anyone else from entering the pot, and 2) buy a little more information about the type of hands I'm up against. The world will not come to an end if you get reraised. You don't have to respect the caller, you don't have to respect the raiser, but you must repect the reraiser.

Can I get an Amen?

I'll fold and save my chips for a better spot...

Folding unconditionally with this hand is an amaturish play.

Give it up Diablo. He's a Cubs fan. They're hopeless.

an amaturish play

would be to just call here. HUGE sign of weakness, which a good player will realize and push over the top.

I would call with K Q offsuit, but only because I am not disciplined enough not to play it. The right call, in my opinion, is to fold. You always have to consider what MIGHT happen, contrary to what some posts have said. Thats why you dont play an A 4 offsuit, because you MIGHT catch and ace, which would often entice you to lose a lot of your chips to a higher kicker. If you are in early position, and after calling, someone doubles the blind, then what would you do? You would be almost forced to call, since you already called that amount on the first time around and now the pot is much larger. Now, if you happen to catch a flop like A K 2, you'll probably be committed enough to call small raises until the river (since the pot is decent because of the small raise by another player). In my experience, I would play a K Q in early position... but it would take a better, more disciplined player to lay it down, which would save them a lot of chips in the long run.

So its better to fold them outright then it is to cold call or raise? Again, you seem so worried about what someone else is going to do that you aren't playing your own cards. I voted for raise double the big blind, but also added that there is a defense for all the options in certain situations. However, saying you would fold them and wait for a better spot without consideration for raising or calling is donkinsh, like I said.

A min-raise is

donkinsh

.

You are going to get callers if you min-raise...you do NOT want callers with KQ offsuit!!!!

Min-raising is one of the most donkish plays in poker if you hold KQ off preflop in EP-MP

I said I voted raise 2/3 x the BB, but that there were instances where any of the options were permissable. You like quoting me don't you?

I said I voted raise 2/3 x the BB, but that there were instances where any of the options were permissable. You like quoting me don't you?

There are many instances where you may want callers especially with middle suited connectors. He didn't say anything about limits, and I guess you're just used to low limit games where the opponent will call 2 to 3 times the bb without thought. Believe it or not, at some limits, people don't call a 2/3xBB bet without thought. While I agree cold calls are a sign of weakness, if you have proven yourself a player that is constantly changing gears and can play any style, your opponent has no choice but to consider the fact that you're holding a large pocket pair, and must be cautious when calling your 2/3 raise.

Originally Posted by XXIII

Early in the tournament? Shoot you have so many people playing any crap they get. Cant play top 10 hands all the time. Well you can but it really isn't playing poker. Anyone can just play AA KK QQ AK AQ. But how often do you get those?

But everyone has their own choice. But I'd play'em and play'em hard

Play at pokerstars you you get monsters like AA KK QQ JJ alot there. Its actually ridiculous the amount of times you get monsters like that a pokerstars. Other day I even seen two people have pocket aces at the same time. They really need to get a new randomizer at that site.

Gogo old topic~~

Without the limpers this would be a standard raise to ~3*BB, with them I'd raise 4-5*BB. If the two limpers are decent players (which they're probably not, both limping in from early position, but let's ignore that), I'd expect neither is going to be slowplaying a huge hand here from early position - I expect them to be holding hands like KJ, QJ, KT, JT often or perhaps 22 through 99. I fold to a reraise preflop, and play most flops aggressively if I get heads up considering I've shown strength preflop.

A fold here is silly - you have a playable hand and position on the two limpers who have shown no strength thusfar. Folding because you're afraid someone acting after you might have a stronger hand, or one of the early players is hiding a monster is stupid - are you just going to wait for AA before you even play a hand, because after all, if you have KK, that guy who limped in early position could have AA?