All-in with low pockets pre flop

my friends and i have long had arguments about wheather or not you should go all-in with low pockets pre flop.
it has split us 50-50.
i was wondering what the rest of the poker world thinks about low pockets

Not unless you absolutely have to like when your M is below 5. Otherwise it's not a good play. At best you're a coinflip because I doubt anyone's calling an all-in preflop with 22 orr 33. So why bother?

If you are the worst player at the table it may make sense to try to get your chips in on a coin flip, otherwise you may want to exploit the advantage in skill that you have over your opponents.

As was previously mentioned, you rarely are better than 50/50 with middle pairs, and practically never better than that with small pairs. Not only should you not move in preflop with these hands, you should not raise heavily with them at all. A set is almost always the best hand on the flop, and you want action when you flop one.

You want to call bets with small pairs, only if they are less than %7 of your total stack. Also, you never reraise with them before the flop. You will get your pay off after you flop a set, as a set is next to impossible to spot in a raised pot.

Ability to flop a set represents the value of small pairs, and that is thier only value.

I agree with everything else, but not with this one point - if you play pairs differently than other hands from the same position, I think that you are giving away too much information.

In an ideal situation you won't be opening the pot (and can just limp or call along with someone else) but if you are first in a raise is generally the correct play.

Obviously its very situational dependant, but generally I try to get in cheapish, possibly put a raise to stop others doing so, then trying to hit a set or folding if i miss.

If you're in late position I think a raise is useful to try to get the blinds to fold. If you let the blinds in cheap/free they can have any 2 cards and it is hard to play against them post flop when you can't easily put them on a range.

Of course "it all depends" but it's probably "generally" a bad idea.
IF you get called you are either racing or crushed. Compare and contrast this to a hand like big slick, where IF you get called you are most likely racing or crushing another big ace.

Agreed.

I would point too that it depends on positition, are you playing against tight players that dont like to gamble, what kind of table image you have, etc etc..

If I know everyone is super tight, and I see an opening to steal the blinds, 88, 77, 99, are good hands to try to just take it away.

I think you need to play bottom pairs agressive if you truly want to make any $ with them. I'll raise early position with 22, 33, etc. to show strength and make my opponents play back at me if they have a hand. If they call and I flop a set they are going to have a real tough time putting me on that hand. I'll limp just as much as the other guy, but I really like raising with small pairs in early position.

Yes, you are right. "Never" was definately not the right word to use.

It stands to reason that you should not change your strategy specifically to get in cheap with small pairs. However, I think if there are any starting hands that you should avoid raising (when limped around), small pairs are it!

If you are making a position raise, you are doing it regardless of your hole cards. The value of position play is not debatable.

The problem with putting in a 1st raise with these hands is that you cannot justify calling a reraise even against someone who will play ATC any time. Small pairs play so bad against random hands.

So coming in raising from early position is a bad idea IMO. You will usually get calls from the hands that have you crushed. You will sometimes get calls from hands that offer a coin flip. Not to mention if this raise is part of a general (& quite viable) strategy of always coming in raising, you won't get alot of folds from hands that have you beat.

Lastly, flopping a set is arguably the best hand you can flop because of the inherent stealth that comes with it. I would rather flop a set (without a board pair)than a straight, a flush, quads...well...anything...

Along with the fold equity that comes with your raise, you are folding out the huge action you may get when you occasionally make your set. It is one of the few ways you can get solid players to stack off with hands like top pair and 2pair. Much better than playing a set against a legitimate draw from the flop.

This could be called a fringe discussion, with multiple plays being "correct" depending on the situation. Still I say that if you raise with small pairs in situations where you may limp with ANY other starting hands, you should rethink it.

going all in pre flop with mid to low pairs is a good way to loose out early, play smart and let some other people get knocked off early. The best you can hope for is 50 50. In tournys with a lot of people you see pre flop all ins a lot in the beginning, wait it out and play smart.

All good points, well stated, and I agree with you

If I am first in in very early position with a very small pair, if I'm not comfortable raising for some reason, I'll just fold it.

One thing that I will do if I choose to play them icall a standard reraise with any small pair (as long as I can close out the betting). If I can manage to show down a hand like this, it tends to buy protection for future non-pair hands that I raise pre-flop, since they can't automatically assume that I missed when the flop comes low and I bet out.

Many people wouldn't dream of folding AK to a reraise, yet can't bring themselves to call the same reraise with a pair like 55, even though I think 55 is much easier to play post-flop (assuming that you have the discipline to fold if you miss your set). The small pair is also much less likely to get you into trouble than AK, (which can get you trapped in situations like thinking that TPTK is good only to find out that you were being called down by bottom two pair for a good chunk of your stack).

Just to clarify - since we have drifted a bit away from the OP in this thread - when I am talking about a pre-flop raise, I'm not advocating a push. Just a standard raise like any other hand would warrant.

Racing with small pairs is usually a bad idea unless you are backed into a corner

I'm assuming that you are asking about online poker, because live there are so many more things going on than just the cards.

I've been in situations before where UTG+3 raised 2XBB (after a couple of limpers), someone reraised to 6XBB - I looked at the reraiser (which I knew to be a bluffer and a guy that loves to sling chips around the table trying to buy pots and such), I had pocket 2's... I decided my only play there was fold or all-in. I didn't think he had anything to write home about and it didn't seem he gave a crap about anyone else at the table he was intent on seeing the org. raiser fold. Which I was 99% positive the guy was folding to just the reraise anyway. I went all in and the guy turned and looked at me and just said "oh boy".

This was a $2/$5 NL cash game and I had been playing for several hours with these guys. Now say what you might about this move - risky yes, but I just had a really good read on both players. The org. raiser most likely had suited connecters, maybe a low pocket pair (he would raise in the same manner if he had hands like these), the slinger reraiser guy was a chump and raised with crazy shit hands like 109o. If I was wrong I could just have rebought and grinded back what I lost, but I really didn't think that was going to happen.

I took down a $57 dollar pot or so. If I just called or reraised I would have been called and most likely lost the pot. Instead I grew some balls and won myself a small pot, but a win all the same.

NOW - online I could have never got that read and it would have been impossible for me to even stay in the hand (which is why I hate online poker).

If I am a big leader in a tourney I would. If I had less than 10xBB or very low M zone I would. I cant think of any other reason to go all-in with them, though I may call a decent ammount to see the flop.

The move you made should have had nothing to do with your hole cards. The value of your all in raise was all fold equity. If you thought there was a good chance you would get a call, you probably should not have bet.

If you had no $ or only limp $ in the pot before moving in, I don't like the all in bet at all. With a raised pot you expect to be flipping sometimes and crushed sometimes. With the reraise you are often crushed by a higher pair.

I like the move if you made it because of your opponents table image, but a small pair is nearly the worst hand to do that with. You would have done that with ATC right?

Only if your shortstacked.