Adjustments for deep stack cash games

micromachine

micromachine

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I mostly play deepstack games now and Logan asked about adjustments needed for deepstack (250bb buy-in) cash games vs regular cash games (100bb buy-in). I replied in his thread but thought it may be useful for others too so posting here. It's also useful for me to think about and I probably missed stuff out so please add to, comment on or disagree with my points :)

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- Open all ranges up: opening ranges, 3b ranges, 3b flatting ranges, 4b ranges, the game is much loser pre in general, but still, there are plenty of TAGs there that do well too. Although it's a lot looser pre this doesn't mean the decent LAGs are stacking post without strong hands so don't let their stats fool you into thinking they are bad.

- In general you can and should 3bet and 4bet a bit bigger than normal.

- Implied odds hands like PPs, SCs and one gap SCs go up in value and you can start profitably setmining vs 3bets for example or flatting 3bs with decent SCs when in position.

- Not a lot of pots actually go to all-in showdowns, so it's fine to continue with TPTK type hands and, as long as you can fold them later if necessary.

- In big pots vs the regs you need to be careful you don't play 'dangerous' hands, like made flushes that are non nut, or non nut straights, or low sets, or flushes when the board is paired. ie. be careful not to get coolered. Actually coolering fish in huge pots is where a lot of profit will come from, your flush beating theirs, your set beating their 2 pair etc.

- Can start (and probably need to) pick good spots to bluff. 4betting vs regs that 3bet a lot for example, or bluff raising flops with 2 of a suit is another favorite of mine. It helps balance your range and keep your image aggressive, which you need to get paid for your big hands. 4bet folding is pretty bad with 100bb poker, but fine when 250bb deep.

- Need to be more aware of ESS's since the buy-in range is larger (can buy-in between 100 and 250bb compared to 40 and 100bb).

- Table select: there are loads of loose fish to be found, and they often have no idea how to play deep.
 
Fknife

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Lol. You read my mind MM, I was just about to ask you about Deepstacked tables in your thread because I see you have lots of success on them. Thanks for some really good points, I've been considering trying this kind of format on PS for few weeks now but didnt have enough courage to actually hit those tables.

Any changes in open-raising sizes (since there are antes and the unopened pot is bigger)? And any thoughts on FR Deep vs 6max Deep?
 
honeycrush

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Thanks for this MM. I have also joined the deep stack brigade. Am starting again at 2nl and (so far) finding it more profitable than regular 6max.

How did you work out what sort of BR you needed for each level before moving up?
 
micromachine

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@Fknife

Open raising sizes tend to a bit bigger, between 3bb and 5bb, but 3bb is still generally the standard open.

I play mostly 6max but some FR deep too, FR deep is way less nitty than normal FR and some of the players I've encountered there are really awful, it's pretty slow though as deep games tend to play slower than regular games what with more flops being seen and some tougher decisions post.
 
micromachine

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@Honey

I don't think you need 2.5x your normal bankroll requirements for the deep tables, maybe 2x or slightly less is fine.

I think taking 4 or 5 buy-in shots when you reach 20 full buy-ins for the next level is safe, like shot 10 deep with $500, 16 deep with $800 etc.
 
duggs

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I use about 1.6 normal Brm after extensive talks with lots of people about it. I'm on my phone atm so micro f you could copy and paste y comments in Logan's thread id appreciate it. Iv been playing deep exclusively for about a year.
 
duggs

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Thinking in buyins is silly imo, I just use normal Brm and then convert it. I personally 3x pre from everywhere but iv seen regs up at 100nl doing anywhere from 4.5x to 2x.

One thing ill point out is that you have to be willing to start tables.

Decisions are way way tougher and it's harder to protect yourself from exploitation.

That said I think it's a hell of a lot more interesting and more fun
 
micromachine

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Yeah I'll do it in a bit duggs
 
honeycrush

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@Honey

I don't think you need 2.5x your normal bankroll requirements for the deep tables, maybe 2x or slightly less is fine.

I think taking 4 or 5 buy-in shots when you reach 20 full buy-ins for the next level is safe, like shot 10 deep with $500, 16 deep with $800 etc.

I use about 1.6 normal Brm after extensive talks with lots of people about it. I'm on my phone atm so micro f you could copy and paste y comments in Logan's thread id appreciate it. Iv been playing deep exclusively for about a year.

Thanks guys. :)
 
micromachine

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Quoting Duggs deepstack adjustments cos he's on holiday :)

"Open more because of antes in play, defend alot more as we get a much better price. 3b IP much more. 4bet bluffs are more viable, drastically tighten stack off range. Drastically reduce our fold to 3bet, fold less on flops and turns in xbet pots because SPR is bigger. Size preflop 3bet+ bigger and also sizing post is correspondingly bigger (obvious I know). We can attack our opponents in spots where they are capped, nits suffer much more since they are capped in so many spots. We can overbet much more frequently."


"Also post flop accounts for a larger amount of our winnings and losses. The main adjustments are post flop when everything is harder because you can't just default to gii with all your value hands or your bluff catchers are exposed. You also have more opportunities to run bigger bluffs and value bets. 3betting pre and piling your stack in. I dunno if it really matters how you define a buy in micro, like if that's how you are thinking you would need a larger roll for 25nl deep than 50reg which doesn't make a lot of sense. Comparing in bb/$ terms makes the most sense I think.

Will post later more formally but currently just chilling out on holiday and on my phone"
 
Angelface

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I think the biggest profits come from post flop play in lower stakes deep stack but I am curious as to how "deep" you are referring to when you mention "deep".
 
Angelface

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My bad......just seen that you mentioned 250bb :)

Depending on the level then the edges are bigger post flop than pre-flop in my experience and hand reading and the estimation of equity is quite poor to moderate below NL200 and especially in FR on softer sites.
 
micromachine

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My bad......just seen that you mentioned 250bb :)

Depending on the level then the edges are bigger post flop than pre-flop in my experience and hand reading and the estimation of equity is quite poor to moderate below NL200 and especially in FR on softer sites.

I only play on Stars so can't comment on other sites but I agree that FR deep is softer.
 
K

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Thanks for sharing these adjustments. Im also going to try out playing deepstack games now so I'm going to keep this in mind and share my views after playing!
 
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