Adjusting your C-betting to Calling Stations

Yes this is very general but I couldn't think up a better way to express this question.
By loose I mean the type of player who has a 30% fold to c-bet and whos much more likely to have hit board we would normally consider dry.

K97 for example they could hold any pair.
368 They will call with any overcards

How do we adjust our c-betting to this?

Start value betting. If you don't have a hand, try check raising.

If Standard C Bets not working with CS, I would only bet for value.

Good thread , I must say this is a spot I struggle with sometimes, and have ended up losing a fair few big pots, trying to shake em off with a marginal hand, I see where the first few replies are coming from, in the past if I have something like top pair I'd bet a little more, full pot on drawing board, problem is a lot of these guys chase anything with very poor odds, and you can be left with some murky decisions to be made on the turn and particularly the river, it's a spot I hate, and I find it hard to lay down a decent made hand on the river say for example a set knowing fully say that the river card could have made them a flush, but they're range is so wide, and it's horrible if your OOP on the river against a calling station with a tricky board, I tend to find over time the river is when these guys like to make their action, and it's often a simple nuts/air situation

In general playing for value (depending on how light they call, you can value bet lighter), but you can still bluff players like this. You just have to understand how their ranges change and our cbetting tactics should vary against them.

For example cbetting the 368 board, they may peel more with overcards and ace high than with pairs, and that makes barreling overcard turns less attractive, and barreling brick turns like another 6 or a 2 etc more attractive. Just make sure your read of them peeling lots with overcards is correct.

It can actually be good if you know they call lots of flop bets but give up tons on the turn. It's like someone who limp-calls lots preflop, but folds like %80 to cbets; you'd be isolating and cbetting them all day.

Also, don't think in terms of:

...it's just silly. It's like saying "oh no, I can't cbet this flop, this guy could have anything!". Thing is, he's more likely to have missed most flops. I did a flop texture analysis thing a while back which can definitely be taken further, and I'd suggest trying this type of stuff yourself to see how various ranges hit various flops:

http://www.cardschat.com/f50/pokeraz...et-pot-136958/ (http://www.cardschat.com/f50/pokerazor-analysis-1-kq-3bet-pot-136958/)
Pokerazor analysis 2: cbetting against a loose fish

Basically my point is that there's still room for bluffing loose passives postflop, but you just have to understand what their ranges are like on different flop textures, and how it changes on various turns too.

poker razor looks sweet

It is, and it's something I really have to get back on track using. It can be a little tedious at times though.

but very helpful for the postflop things you were discussing in my other thread and the KQ example you used was very surprising to me. I would think I would have the best hand about 20% and lose to AK most of the time but we have much more equity than this since his range is 5%

well i would just bet flop to assume control....then if they just call then i try to place them on a range of hands if its a draw then i will value bet to the river and if they miss i will bet regardless of what i got

This is known as spewing, you have to be able to assign a range before the flop comes down. Usually this can be narrowed by the cold call stat if they flat or 3bet stat if they 3bet. Therefore you can then put your opponent on a better range and if you are just cbetting any flop textures then this is definately a leak and you need to work on it.

As an addendum: Consider your bet-sizing. Versus players who don't fold to flop c-bets, you want to make your c-bets - bluffs as well as value - bigger. You want your value bets to be bigger, obviously, because you want to get money in with good hands. And you want to size your bluffs bigger because when you're bluffing a player like this you're doing it with the intention of firing a second barrel (which you then make relatively smaller) and that makes your bluffs more profitable.

In the process, for free so to speak, you also have the advantage of having balanced your bet sizing since you bet both your bluffs and your value hands the same amount. Ka-ching!

I currently halfpot my bluffs full pot my value bets.
Exploitable as **** (I can't swear since when!) but I usually don't consider calling stations to be apt enough to exploit this.
Reckon I'm right not to balance here?

For those opponents who aren't all that bad and are just float addicts I'll be sure to use this and perhaps when i move up stakes and balancing becomes more necessary.

This sounds like cash game tactics but I read on another forum that the best way to improve your MTT play is to play cash games. In fact the guy said cash game players can more easily adapt to MTT than the other way around.

Just wondering if this is applicable to MTT as well, and will these tools like poker razor help my MTT game?

For example: if I'm playing a tourney and, as Paulson says I must be willing to fire two bullets bluffing as well as value, what happens when I get called on the turn as well firing a bullet with AK on a board like 8 6 3 J? The 8 might have made the guy a set or a draw with 79. The jack now becomes a scare card, so do I still fire the bullet? Tourney is about saving chips as well-so do I still continue to C bet a calling station OOP?

Thanks, Michael

Thats a very vague situation.
It depends on the stack sizes, your opponent, the tournament structure, your image how the hand played out preflop and most of all your opponents range.

Tournaments I tend to double barrel less as the stack sizes are smaller.
In general the jack is a good scare card.
79 is going to be a rare site indeed, if a player is loose enough to call a raise with 79 we shouldn't be double barreling them in the first place.

I never play tourneys so your best asking this in an MTT thread.

No worries dude-I just saw the title and I realzie that at the MTT stakes that I play-I have the same problem of C betting a calling station who could have anything even just overcards.

Nice thread though-I will read.

The kind of player that I term a calling station must be different to yours. Because stack sizes, postion, and cards, and tourney structure mean nothing to what I name a calling station. Your answer about hand ranges really hit home, but its tough to C bet into a player who could have anything and doesnt raise when he has something.
Lata,

I think its perfectly fine to use exploitable bet sizes against players that you dont percieve as good enough to exploit you. If you feel like they are starting to exploit you based on your betsize by raising your half pot cbets and folding to your larger ones then you can try reversing your strategy to keep them off balance. Against stations I would be much more willing to cbet/double barrel with some kind of equity, maybe something like 2 overs+backdoor flush draw, over and gutshot. Against those guys I like having some kind of "escape hatch", where if you double barrel one of them then hit your hand on the river you can get a fat river value bet in there, which make up for a lot of times when you cbet the flop get called and have to give up.