7 Signs of a TAGfish ....... Are you one?

#1 7th October 2009, 9:47 PM

Discussion on another article by Daniel Skolovy ............

Top 7 Signs You're a TAGfish
User rating: 4.73 out of 5 (320 votes)

Okay. So I read another Daniel Skolovy article and wanted to bring it up for discussion here on CC.

Basically, the nuts and bolts of the article were how to identify if you are a TAGfish. Most everyone reading this will know what a TAG (Tight Aggressive) player is, but many might not understand that a TAG player might not be the same as a Winning player.

Identifying all TAG players as winning players could be a huge mistake!

Daniel points this out by saying a TAGfish player initially looks just like a winning TAG player, but they are actually just breaking at even or under. A TAGfish player will buy-in with the full buy-in amount. They will top off every hand. They will have decent stats, and think they are playing poker right, but they can't seem to rake in the pots for a winning average.

Daniel goes on to point out the reason for this, just as so many other books and instructions say as well, "Poker is a game of Situations!"

No matter how many books you read. No matter how many hands you play. And no matter how many times you look at your stats from you latest HUD review. You will not be a winning poker player unless you realize that main point. Poker is a game of situations. It's not a game of hole cards, and it's definitely not a game of stats!

Quoted from Daniel's article:
"That's because there's more to poker than having good stats. Poker is a thinking man's game; you can't just imitate what you've read and become some money-printing robot.

You have to be able to apply what you've learned and make good decisions each time the action is on you.

A TAGfish doesn't. He just plays the same game all day, every day, no matter the situation. And he perpetually loses/breaks even, thinking he's the most unlucky player on the face of the earth."

So much for a summary, sorry........

Daniel has broken the identifiers of a TAGfish into 7 signs, I am quoting directly from the article from this point:

1) You think about your opponent's range but never your own

Everyone knows you have to try to put your opponent on a range. It's one of the most fundamental skills in poker.

But a TAGfish doesn't think about his own range in doing so. An opponent is going to play the hand a few different ways according to what he thinks you have.

You'll never be able to accurately put your opponent on a range without first thinking about your own perceived range.

2) You misapply skills you've learned

A TAGfish tries to learn to play better poker. He watches videos, read articles and studies the game extensively. But he misapplies the information he's learned.

He'll learn that continuation betting and giving up is bad, so he'll just fire every second barrel.

He'll learn that to exploit players that c-bet too much you can float the flop and take away the pot on the turn, but he'll float with pure air instead of gutshots or hands with backdoor capabilities.

He'll learn that three-betting light is profitable, but he'll do it regardless of his opponent's three-bet calling frequency. And he'll do it with the wrong hands.

He only learns half the skills. He knows what to do, but then misapplies when he should be doing it and who he should be doing it against.

3) You call the same range in the cut-off as you do on the button

A TAGfish treats the cut-off and the button as the exact same position. If an opponent raises from early position, he'll call in the cut-off with 6

9

thinking it's perfectly fine because he'll be playing the pot in position.

But that just isn't the case. You've still got one more player to act behind you and if he's any good, he can make your life a living hell.

That player can three-bet with impunity whenever you call with your weak, speculative hand, he can call and steal your post-flop position and he can punish you after the flop.

Where good TAGs abuse the button, a TAGfish allows himself to be abused by the button.

4) You overestimate your implied odds

A TAGfish thinks every time he makes the nuts he's going to win a stack. He thinks if he calls from the blinds with a pocket pair and nails a set, he's going to win an opponent's whole stack every time.

So he calls with his speculative hands post-flop, check-folds when he misses and, when he finally makes that huge hand, he makes his opponent fold.

He bleeds all his money trying to hit that hand and then when he does hit, he never makes that money back.

5) You have leaks post-flop

A TAGfish typically plays fine pre-flop. He has that part of the game solved to a degree.

He knows he can't limp Q9o upfront and expect to show a profit. He knows AK needs to be raised for value, etc. But once the flop comes, his mistakes start to compound.

Knowing when to fold pre-flop is easy. But knowing when to ditch top pair, bad kicker isn't. Knowing when to double barrel and when to triple barrel is hard.

A TAGfish plays his own cards too often and the situation and his opponents not nearly enough.

6) You look at each decision as a separate entity

A TAGfish gets caught up in a tough decision and thinks, "Man, this spot sucks. What the hell do I do?" Really, it's not what he just did that put him in that spot; it's what he did earlier in the hand.

He doesn't have a plan in mind for the hand. He just acts and figures it out from there. He plays reactive poker instead of proactive poker.

7) You tilt too much

A TAGfish doesn't tilt in the true "five-bet ship 58o" sense of the word.
But when he's losing, he definitely doesn't play his best. He rushes decisions. He slips into auto pilot. And, worst of all, he plays far too long.

A TAGfish loves trying to get unstuck and will play all day trying to get unstuck - all the while playing C- game poker. Yet when he has a winning day, he'll quit early and play small sessions, booking a small win.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If this sounds a lot like you, don't worry. TAGfish syndrome is curable.
The answer: concentrate on making the best decision every single time the action is on you and take your time. Sometimes the best possible play won't come to you right away.

But if you do your best to think about the benefits of each possible decision, you'll be making more good decisions and less bad ones.

If you want to win more money - and stop being a TAGfish, that's exactly where you need to start.

#2 8th October 2009, 1:00 AM

Great thread, I identified some of my own flaws within.

#3 8th October 2009, 1:42 AM

Txs, good points, I will think harder and longer about more variables... (I think I can I know I can

).

#4 8th October 2009, 2:06 AM

guilty, guilty, guilty.... u been watching me too much dude.

But seriously good tips!

TAGfish... hmmm

#5 8th October 2009, 2:41 AM

Thanks, great tips. Especially the 7th, it seems I'm a TAGfish

.

#6 8th October 2009, 4:54 AM

Tony Guerrera also touched on this subject a while back in an article on Poker Player Online:

http://stickspoker.blogspot.com/2008...i-tagfish.html

#7 8th October 2009, 5:06 AM

Great thread. I'm about to really try to play cash games seriously. I hope to learn from the successful players here. I've never been a strong cash game player. I think I try to play for cash the exact same way I play in tourneys. Thanks for the info.

#8 8th October 2009, 6:34 AM

Should the tagged fish be released after you catch one?

#9 8th October 2009, 6:59 AM

Great thread! I have one or two of those, and I'll have to take my time for decision and adjust better.

#10 8th October 2009, 7:56 AM

Okay, so now I have a name for what I am. There is a lot of info to identify a TAGfish, but not enough info on how to stop being a TAGfish.

"he misapplies the information he's learned."

Yep, this is me. How do you fix this?

"He only learns half the skills. He knows what to do, but then misapplies when he should be doing it and who he should be doing it against."

Guilty again. I have been learning the what but still don't have the when and who.

"Where good TAGs abuse the button, a TAGfish allows himself to be abused by the button."

Yep, this has been known to happen to me too. Do you only play when you are on the button? What ranges do you play when in the other positions? I have been experimenting with the info I have learned, but have been failing miserably. What hands do you play on the button (I know some will say any hand), but when do you go strong with nothing? It is an easy decision if it has been folded around to you and both blinds are short stacked. It is also easy if you have 72 and there is an all in caller ahead of you. But I have trouble with the gray area in between the extremes, trying to figure out if I should fold or represent a strong hand when I'm on the button.

"He bleeds all his money trying to hit that hand and then when he does hit, he never makes that money back."
"A TAGfish plays his own cards too often and the situation and his opponents not nearly enough."

This happens sometimes, but I am getting a little better. I still don't consider EVERY hand my opponent can have. Tonight I had KK and the board was Q9QJK. I figured I had the nuts with Kings Full. I put my opponent on trip Queens, a straight, or maybe Queens full. Unfortunately, my opponent had QQ and hit quads. Twice today I have been beaten like this by the single possible hand that can beat my hand (both times beaten by quads when I had a FH). How do you know when your "monster" hand is really good enough?

"He plays reactive poker instead of proactive poker."

Yep, this is a hard one to correct.

"The answer: concentrate on making the best decision every single time the action is on you and take your time."

There has to be more to it then this. I try to concentrate on making the best decision, but I'm still a TAGfish. There must be more.

#11 8th October 2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agile Beauce

Okay, so now I have a name for what I am. There is a lot of info to identify a TAGfish, but not enough info on how to stop being a TAGfish.

"he misapplies the information he's learned."

Yep, this is me. How do you fix this?

Only through analysis of your game. Self-analysis is critical, but it's also very helpful to have someone else critique your play, either through a sweat session or by posting a video and soliciting feedback.

"He only learns half the skills. He knows what to do, but then misapplies when he should be doing it and who he should be doing it against."

Guilty again. I have been learning the what but still don't have the when and who.

"Where good TAGs abuse the button, a TAGfish allows himself to be abused by the button."

Yep, this has been known to happen to me too. Do you only play when you are on the button? What ranges do you play when in the other positions? I have been experimenting with the info I have learned, but have been failing miserably. What hands do you play on the button (I know some will say any hand), but when do you go strong with nothing? It is an easy decision if it has been folded around to you and both blinds are short stacked. It is also easy if you have 72 and there is an all in caller ahead of you. But I have trouble with the gray area in between the extremes, trying to figure out if I should fold or represent a strong hand when I'm on the button.

Are you a tourney player? I ask cuz of your comment about both blinds being ss'd, and a correct move in an MTT may be an incorrect move in a cash game (antes+escalating blinds relative to stack sizes have an impact on the decision in MTT's that are different from cash games). But generally, if you have an agg 3bet happy BTN behind you when you're CO, you can't open pure junk in CO unless you're confident BTN will fold nicely to 4bets. Also, your comments are really pf. How well can your hand hit the board if BTN calls? Does BTN fold nicely to cbets or does he like to float?

"He bleeds all his money trying to hit that hand and then when he does hit, he never makes that money back."
"A TAGfish plays his own cards too often and the situation and his opponents not nearly enough."

This happens sometimes, but I am getting a little better. I still don't consider EVERY hand my opponent can have. Tonight I had KK and the board was Q9QJK. I figured I had the nuts with Kings Full. I put my opponent on trip Queens, a straight, or maybe Queens full. Unfortunately, my opponent had QQ and hit quads. Twice today I have been beaten like this by the single possible hand that can beat my hand (both times beaten by quads when I had a FH). How do you know when your "monster" hand is really good enough?

You will never, ever, ever be able to put Villain on quads when you're holding the nut full house. Don't bother trying, it happens too infrequently to have a long term neg impact on your winrate, and folding the nut full house on the suspicion Villain has quads will have a tremendous neg impact on your winrate (Villain will almost always show up w a worse hand than the nut fh).Your monster hand is good enough when you believe it to likely be better than the hand Villain is holding. Did you see the vid of the royal flush beating quad A's in the WSOP? The guy w quad A's did not make a mistake shoving there, it's tremendously unlikely that his hand is second best (man, did I feel his pain)- and the worst that his hand could possibly be is second best - the second nuts is almost always a monster worth pushing, esp if you see likely third and fourth best hands that will call.

"He plays reactive poker instead of proactive poker."

Yep, this is a hard one to correct.

"The answer: concentrate on making the best decision every single time the action is on you and take your time."

There has to be more to it then this. I try to concentrate on making the best decision, but I'm still a TAGfish. There must be more.

There is, but too much to put in one article. Read c9's required reading list in the ring game HA forum for more.

gl!!!

#12 8th October 2009, 2:39 PM

I'm a tagfish from 2 of the 7, never would have thought it....Much to ponder....Interesting post.

#13 8th October 2009, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agile Beauce

Okay, so now I have a name for what I am. There is a lot of info to identify a TAGfish, but not enough info on how to stop being a TAGfish.

"he misapplies the information he's learned."

Yep, this is me. How do you fix this?

This was addressed in the preface of the thread, "Poker is a game of Situations!"

I once read a book on how to bake cookies. It told me to how mix the ingredients in a bowl. Cut them out and place them on a pan and then bake in a preheated oven at a very specific temperature. I did exactly as the book told me, and the cookies were great!

But what the book didn't tell me, was that I don't bake every cookie recipe that exact same way. Instead it simply gives other recipes for other types of cookies. Some are no bake, some are made with different ingredients, and others only needed a slightly different temperature to bake at.

The point is......... that there are MANY different ways to bake cookies. What was the best solution for one situation, might not always be the best solution for every situation. Even though it might not actully say this in the cookie book; I wouldn't make 'No-bake' cookies in the oven.

I also wouldn't play the Fish in the Cutoff the same way as I would play the TAG in early position. No matter how many books you read, you won't find a Cookie-Cutter Move for every situation. You have to "Think" about what is the right move for each situation as every situation is unique in it's own way with it's own variables.

So......
How do you fix this??

Take the time to stop and think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agile Beauce

He only learns half the skills. He knows what to do, but then misapplies when he should be doing it and who he should be doing it against."

Guilty again. I have been learning the what but still don't have the when and who.

I have a hard time understanding where you are getting information about the "What" without the "When" or "Who." The book might now directly say it...... but I'm sure it's there if you look hard enough.

Again ...... "Poker is a game of Situations!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agile Beauce

Where good TAGs abuse the button, a TAGfish allows himself to be abused by the button."

Yep, this has been known to happen to me too. Do you only play when you are on the button? What ranges do you play when in the other positions? I have been experimenting with the info I have learned, but have been failing miserably. What hands do you play on the button (I know some will say any hand), but when do you go strong with nothing? It is an easy decision if it has been folded around to you and both blinds are short stacked. It is also easy if you have 72 and there is an all in caller ahead of you. But I have trouble with the gray area in between the extremes, trying to figure out if I should fold or represent a strong hand when I'm on the button.

If you are still having trouble Pre-Flop, then your holes post flop might be more sever than first thought of.

And for that reason I will only say, "Poker is a game of Situations!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agile Beauce

"He bleeds all his money trying to hit that hand and then when he does hit, he never makes that money back."
"A TAGfish plays his own cards too often and the situation and his opponents not nearly enough."

This happens sometimes, but I am getting a little better. I still don't consider EVERY hand my opponent can have. Tonight I had KK and the board was Q9QJK. I figured I had the nuts with Kings Full. I put my opponent on trip Queens, a straight, or maybe Queens full. Unfortunately, my opponent had QQ and hit quads. Twice today I have been beaten like this by the single possible hand that can beat my hand (both times beaten by quads when I had a FH). How do you know when your "monster" hand is really good enough?

This is EXACTLY why you have to be a thinking player! First of all, you have only put the end result. But you didn't include any of the information before that. You MUST consider ALL actions that make up the situation. Pre-flop and on.

You will never hear a pro start a story with, "Okay, so I had pocket Kings and lost to a Q9QJK board." He will include the starting positions the take on the players, the raise amounts, and the actions that create the situation on each street.

Again......... "Poker is a game of Situations!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agile Beauce

"He plays reactive poker instead of proactive poker."

Yep, this is a hard one to correct.

Yes. This can be a HUGE habit to break. And it is still one of my weakest areas...... But I am making an effort to think before I act.

In general you MUST have a plan because, "Poker is a game of Situations!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agile Beauce

"The answer: concentrate on making the best decision every single time the action is on you and take your time."

There has to be more to it then this. I try to concentrate on making the best decision, but I'm still a TAGfish. There must be more.

It shouldn’t take long to figure out what I am going to say here.........

"Poker is a game of Situations!" And you MUST think

#14 8th October 2009, 11:43 PM

Great thread. I really need to go back and reevaluate my game a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deucem

Should the tagged fish be released after you catch one?

I Lolled.

#15 8th October 2009, 11:55 PM

If I raise 70% of pots am I a Tagfish?

Seriously, its a very good article, well played TAG is profitable but when they loosen up, they do it all wrong. A good LAG player will crucify them.

The step from TAG to LAG is much harder but remember a good LAG player knows when to fold.

#16 9th October 2009, 4:13 AM

Great article - thanks for posting!
Imo - one of the key things to remember is the situational play. Many tag players do have a style that they feel works for them yet fail to mix up their play and style and failing to take full benefits of a current situation or fail to realize the actual situation at hand. Learn to get out of your "comfort zone" and explore other styles of play - but adjust on a situational basis.

Snow has a thread: My MTT Strategies that I would recommend as a read to any of you that have identified with the article posted above. One of the things I love about Snow's article is his advocation for deep thought processes with each and every hand you play.

GL!

#17 9th October 2009, 10:53 AM

yeah, i agree. One of the main tools of success at poker is to keep changing your style of play from time to time, and other important tool is patience{its my fav weapon}.And the tag fishes really lack this both...
Very nice post by the way buddy. Thanks.

#18 10th October 2009, 10:40 PM

For the longest time I was guilty of #1 and #4. #4 I think I've corrected, and I'm working on #1 (though, sadly, I don't always get it right). Regarding implied odds, I find people who don't really understand how to calculate it justifying a call because of "implied". I mean, it works for me, because it generally means they're making a -EV call, but it's kind of entertaining to hear.

#19 11th October 2009, 11:49 AM

Great resource.
This led me to think that there is no perfect players, and most of them will make mistakes, no matter what their level of play, cause afterall, poker is a game where you want to push your opponents to do mistakes.
I know i have work to do on my own play and will try to improve my game as everyone at CC. And reading articles is the best way for me to do so.
So, thank's again for the infos.

#20 11th October 2009, 5:08 PM

I read this and thought "am i being stalked at the poker table"..i kinda do most of these at seperate times.will defo read this again and try evaluate it next time im in game..good thread, good rading,..thanks

#21 11th October 2009, 7:04 PM

Quote:

You will never, ever, ever be able to put Villain on quads when you're holding the nut full house. Don't bother trying, it happens too infrequently to have a long term neg impact on your winrate, and folding the nut full house on the suspicion Villain has quads will have a tremendous neg impact on your winrate (Villain will almost always show up w a worse hand than the nut fh).Your monster hand is good enough when you believe it to likely be better than the hand Villain is holding. Did you see the vid of the royal flush beating quad A's in the WSOP? The guy w quad A's did not make a mistake shoving there, it's tremendously unlikely that his hand is second best (man, did I feel his pain)- and the worst that his hand could possibly be is second best - the second nuts is almost always a monster worth pushing, esp if you see likely third and fourth best hands that will call.

This is a good point. There are certain hands that you just cannot get away from. Your opponent would have to basically have zero agression without the absolute nuts, which is unlikely.

You do need to make good folds to be good at poker, but making folds of that magnitude would be a leak because you would be very bluffable, and over-cautions, in essence you would lose far more than you would win by folding really big hands because there is a slightly bigger hand possible.

#22 11th October 2009, 9:45 PM

I think 2, 3, and 6 sorta describe me. I need to work on that

#23 25th October 2009, 7:00 PM

Yeah, This is a fantastic post. I think when i am doing multitabling like 8-10 i can slip into that auto-mode and also i never quit and give up if things just arnt going my way on that day. Really has opened my eyes thanks for that.

#24 29th October 2009, 6:32 PM

Wow great post. well i know now i am a fish. I have really been recently focusing on my post flop play. I think the river play is always tough for me. When i fire twice and get called i always almost never really know where im at in the hand and i think thats why i have such a huge leak in river play. again thanks for the great article info.

#25 29th October 2009, 8:45 PM

What about a LAG fish?

#26 30th October 2009, 5:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emrald Onyxx

3) You call the same range in the cut-off as you do on the button

A TAGfish treats the cut-off and the button as the exact same position. If an opponent raises from early position, he'll call in the cut-off with 6

9

thinking it's perfectly fine because he'll be playing the pot in position.

But that just isn't the case. You've still got one more player to act behind you and if he's any good, he can make your life a living hell.

That player can three-bet with impunity whenever you call with your weak, speculative hand, he can call and steal your post-flop position and he can punish you after the flop.

Where good TAGs abuse the button, a TAGfish allows himself to be abused by the button.

7) You tilt too much

A TAGfish doesn't tilt in the true "five-bet ship 58o" sense of the word.
But when he's losing, he definitely doesn't play his best. He rushes decisions. He slips into auto pilot. And, worst of all, he plays far too long.

A TAGfish loves trying to get unstuck and will play all day trying to get unstuck - all the while playing C- game poker. Yet when he has a winning day, he'll quit early and play small sessions, booking a small win.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If this sounds a lot like you, don't worry. TAGfish syndrome is curable.
The answer: concentrate on making the best decision every single time the action is on you and take your time. Sometimes the best possible play won't come to you right away.

But if you do your best to think about the benefits of each possible decision, you'll be making more good decisions and less bad ones.

If you want to win more money - and stop being a TAGfish, that's exactly where you need to start.

Thanks for this thread Emrald Onyxx.

Number - 7. Was a bad problem for me, I would go and play cash games to try and recoup STT losses. That in itself was bad enough, but I am not a good cash player, many a time I have sat at the same 6 player cash table for 500 hands or more. Since reading this thread, I havn't played a single cash game.

Number - 3. I am slowly conquering, occasionally I go into auto pilot and forget, but I am getting there.

Thanks again

Jack Sprat

#27 2nd November 2009, 9:24 PM

One of the best pieces of advice (sorry, I don't remember where it came from):

The difference between limit and no-limit is that limit is about consistently making right decisions, and no-limit is about making right decisions on big hands.

I think some people have gone wrong on this thread by talking about playing every hand like it's a final table. For one, thinking burns energy. Think too much, get tired quicker. Especially online, especially multitabling.

What's important is the ability to recognize right away when a hand is likely to turn into a big hand, and really turn up the attention.

#28 6th November 2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulieK

One of the best pieces of advice (sorry, I don't remember where it came from):

The difference between limit and no-limit is that limit is about consistently making right decisions, and no-limit is about making right decisions on big hands.

I think some people have gone wrong on this thread by talking about playing every hand like it's a final table. For one, thinking burns energy. Think too much, get tired quicker. Especially online, especially multitabling.

What's important is the ability to recognize right away when a hand is likely to turn into a big hand, and really turn up the attention.

So..............

Stop thinking?

I don't think that advice was ever in the books that I have read on poker. Maybe it didn't sell that well so I missed that one.

#29 6th November 2009, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emrald Onyxx

So..............

Stop thinking?

I don't think that advice was ever in the books that I have read on poker. Maybe it didn't sell that well so I missed that one.

Thats actually very good advice. As a few on here know, I will play LAG hard but I will tell you now the concentration required really knackers you. You have to have a read on every player at the table and be able to predict their actions before you act. Live is a lot easier as you have nothing better to do than study the table.

I've gone back to TAG lol.

#30 10th November 2009, 3:26 AM

Never have and never will be a TAG fish... I am not the best by no means but I am usually smart and the odd times I make the one critical mistake during a game.. That's just something I will need to indentify and pass by.

#31 11th November 2009, 3:56 PM

Sound advice. I am guilty of making mistakes 1,2,5. Still working on fixing my game. Currently i play a weekly live game with bunch of maniacs and loose players. It is good for me, but it is still difficult to put people on hand or do 2 level thinking when most play only their hands.

#32 11th November 2009, 8:00 PM

Holy Crap I am part Tag Fish.

#33 12th November 2009, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PooffyFooffy

Holy Crap I am part Tag Fish.

And the rest is just fish!!! Oh snap!!!

#34 12th November 2009, 1:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriggaLos

And the rest is just fish!!! Oh snap!!!

LMAO that is why I <3 you.

I was thinking donkey, I will take fish.

#35 12th November 2009, 1:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriggaLos

And the rest is just fish!!! Oh snap!!!

Does that include you, Trigga??? Kidding...

This was very good advice, but still somewhat confusing when I'm still trying to find my own style.

Play Texas Hold'em Online Poker \| 7 Signs of a TAGfish ....... Are you one?
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