3betting: when, what, why

I have been 3betting both for value and with bluffs but lately have been hearing different takes from people on what kinds of hands you should be 3 betting in different spots. I am very interested in hearing everyones opinions here, especially the more established players on the site. For example:

1. On the button with a raise and a call? Assuming no reads, what hands do you 3bet for value? As a bluff? Which hands do you flat?

2. In the small blind with a raise and a call? Value 3bet? Bluff 3bet? Flat?

Please explain why you 3bet or call these hands in these spots.

I would also love to hear some good advice on this. At micro stakes 3betting only AA KK and AK kinda gives it away, but three betting QQ JJ 1010 will get you in trouble because you will usually be behind if they call or raise. Suited connectors and small pocket pair you hurt your implied odds. Really you are just hoping they will fold and you can pick up the money there.

No where near an established CCer but heres my opinion (My thoughts apply to the games I actually play (ie 2nl and 5nl) :

Assuming no reads : 3bet tight, so QQ+ AK, maybe JJ, TT. This doesn't matter what position you're in. With no reads you can only really 3bet for value at the lowest stakes, and since you can't put unknown on a range, you have to play quite tight.

From there you can only really base your plays on reads,

If you're playing a loose player, then 3bet hands like ATs, KJs, stuff like that, hands that dominate his range, especially if they play fit or fold postflop.

Forget about 3 betting anything but the very best of hands against a nit (unless you have reason to believe he steals a lot late, but you need a solid read for that).

Against TAGs you can loosen up your 3bet range in the blinds against a raise from the BTN or CO, those guys generally like to steal light.

These are some very basic guidelines you can use but there are other things to take into account like your table image (not very important at the lowest stakes) and raiser position.

Hope this helps

When you loosen your range in the blinds should be still raising for value? Or just bluffing back with a resteal? I usually fold hands like k10o A10o, a9o and basically all potentilally dominated hands. Are these the hands I should resteal with or will I get in too much trouble if they flat and I catch tpbk?

Well unless you have a very good reason to, you should ALWAYS be raising for value at the lowest stakes, the only exception would be against a TAG that likes to steal a lot.

Against tight nitty players, fold all of the above. Against fishy players I think you can 3bet them for value, but you still have to choose who you do this against (40/32 is not the same as 40/3), the more they raise, the more you should be willing to 3bet against them, the optimal target being either a player who folds a lot postflop or a player who loves to call down with 7th pair.

Just know this is not a definitive guide to 3betting, my poker career is also quite young, so it's more of a discussion starter than a guide, hope you can take something from it.

1. On the button with a raise and a call? Assuming no reads, what hands do you 3bet for value? As a bluff? Which hands do you flat?

I 3-bet a lot of hands on the BTN for value and as a bluff. Why? I'm IP, so it is a lot easier on me. If I have no reads though, it is going to be a 3-bet bluff a lot more. Personally, I think 3-betting for value is impossible without reads. You have to know your opponent calls 3-bets pretty regularly, if you want to value 3-bet with AJo. If our opponent doesn't call 3-bets and only plays 4-bet or fold, we want it to be a bluff a lot more because we won't call a 4-bet with AJo anyways, so we might as well 3-bet with air.

2. In the small blind with a raise and a call? Value 3bet? Bluff 3bet? Flat?

Personally, I think people will call you a lot more in this spot. They are going to be IP on you, so this is a spot you really don't want to bluff much. This is an area where 3-betting the top of the range is a lot better.

Can you ever really 3bet AJo for value? What worse hands would call? I place very little value on AJo, maybe too little. I just think it will be a second best hand a lot of the time. When you 3bet AJo, A10-A2 fold out, maybe AQ sometimes and AK calls or 4bets. Even if they call with 88-JJ and fold to a cbet on a K25r board, you aren't really getting value with your hand are you? Didn't you turn your hand into a bluff?

Any value you get from a hand is value.

For the AJo again it depends on the opponent.

If you're playing a guy who plays 8/5 (very tight) who is positionaly aware, he raises UTG, you're on the button with AJo. Of course you're going to throw that away. His range is basically JJ+, AK, maybe, just maybe AQ. That range has you crushed, fold please.

Same situation but the guy plays 40/31 over a decent amount of hands, he raises UTG, again you're on the button with AJo. His range is now very wide open, something like (very wild guess) 22+, Ax, K4+, Q7+, J9+, T8+. Against this range your equity is good so if you 3bet (which you should), you're 3betting for value as the majority of the time you'll be in front.

Quite basic, hope you're getting it, there are plenty of threads on this site with better explanations than mine, all you have to do is find them.

AJo has some equity in a raised pot against a regs range. However, once you get into a 3bet pot, your equity is going to be significantly less. Wouldn't you be better calling there? Am I thinking about this the wrong way?

It really depends on how much the first raise was. If it was something like 3 or 4 times big blind, (unless he has been doing this alot) he's likely got Ace 10 suited or better and you would have to have at least AK to even call, QQ KK or AA to 3bet. If the first raise was something like 10 time big blind (unless hes a complete donk) He's got A very good hand or running a bluff. If someone 3bets that and theres another reraise or an allin and a call, then it's KK vs AA or AA vs AA or KK vs KK.

Again, depends on the situation, poker isn't a solved game, you can't really give a definite right answer for such a general question. Your equity doesn't change whether you're in a 3bet pot or not, it does if you think your opponent will call with less hands than he did in the first place when the pot was unopened.

The best thing to do would be to post a hand in the hand analysis part of the forum and wait for an answer, you never know, maybe an actual good player (and not a fellow novice like me) will give you the answers you're looking for.

I'm not getting anywhere, so I'll ask you a question. Why do you 3-bet AA, KK, QQ, AK?

You can almost never 3bet AJ for value, it's a bluff against all but the craziest of maniacs. And AJ is too strong to turn into a bluff in most cases so 3betting hands like AJ is generally not a great idea.

Ok so now I'm the one who is confused ... I think I'm mixing up 3 betting and isolating.

Feel free WVH to erase my posts if they sound like complete garbage

Well your equity against his range is lower because he called a 3bet so his range (should) becomes narrower.

I know what you are saying, but I firmly disagree that it can't be done. Here is the thing. If you don't know your opponent very well, a 3-bet is always a bluff. However, if you know your opponent calls 3-bets pretty regularly, you can 3-bet AJo for some value. Also as I already stated, if you are playing some guy who 4-bet or folds, it is a very bad idea to value 3-bet AJo because it is a bluff.

Against limpers I will raise with AJo to isolate or because I think they will call with worse. If there are raisers ahead of me I will fold or maybe call because the hands ahead are much stronger.

Please do be explaining how 3betting AA is a bluff?

What hands do you think will call that you will get value from?

Do you know how wide a range our opponent would need to be willing to get in before AJ would be at an equity advantage (not that we need to be greater than 50% depending on the dead money but just as an exercise)?

22+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo

Against that huge range AJ has 50.4% equity.

Equity is not necessarily the key factor here though WV.

What if villain calls all said hands and plays fit or fold postflop?

ie what if he calls with TT but folds on a Q-high flop?

Or if he flats with AQo but c/f the flops he misses?

Or if he calls with X hand, c/c lots of flops but c/f lots of turns?

The term 'value' doesn't necessarily refer strictly to our hand's equity edge. I mean by definition it means we get worse hands to call, but in this context can mean to garner later fold equity, if that makes sense.

Gotcha. Maybe it was a bad way of trying to illustrate how poorly AJ generally does against villains likely continuation range which optimistically is like top 5%. AJ also suffers imo because often times when we do hit top pair and villain is willing to put money in postflop we're way behind.

Also if villain is as you described can't we get more value by flatting AJ and 3betting 57o or something similar?

I like this one. It made me smile. I'll see, if I can try. We sit down for our very first hand in the BB. BAM!!! AA. This is going to be a good day. Fold, fold, fold, BTN raise, fold, so we 3-bet. We don't know anything about this guy. He doesn't know anything about us. He folds. So was it a bluff? Was it for value? I could of got the same value from 72o there. I had no real reason to believe he would call... I'm not saying it was a bad play at all. Was it a bluff though? My answer: it might as well have been.


Well, you have to understand who you are getting advice from. I play like 30/25 at 6-max. (maybe higher) I've 3-bet people and got to showdowns where they had K5s type hands. People personally call me really light, so I try to get value out of my hands in all phases. Honestly, if you 3-bet and they are calling with the range you suggest, I might fold KK to their 4-bets lulz.

I misspoke a little bit: equity is definitely the main factor in 3betting, but isn't the sole factor.

In the case of us having either a very thin edge or being a small dog by 3betting AJo, I'm doing so simply because he will a) miss most of the time with his better unpaired hands (ie AQ, discounting AK given he didn't 4bet pf), and b) we have decent equity against his pairs. The big difference is that 57s needs a lot more help than AJo to beat the pairs, even if that issue isn't a big one given that our assumptions say he'll be c/f most flops.

That's a very specific assumption we've got though, and in the majority of cases, 3betting AJo against a fish is just fine because most of the time he's calling with much, much worse. Like A2s+/A6o+. Obviously in that case we're 3betting for value mostly because our equity is so great.

Granted, you play FR so you have to take everything I say with a grain of salt given I'm mostly a 6m player, and make the proper adjustments. I'm talking mostly about spots where the fish will be opening high teens/low 20's with their PFR, and assume they're calling the majority of that range to a 3bet.

aaand exhale.

You put us in some tough spots here...

Profitable 3betting is a dynamic endeavor. There is no static approach that will be profitable in all circumstances. We are going to be 3betting different hands (for different reasons) against different opponents.

In your example situations, we have no reads... that makes it difficult to estimate our fold equity. Without that estimate, we probably shouldn't be bluffing. So, in your examples, I don't think we should ever 3bet bluff.

Yeah thats pretty much already been said mate, read through the thread.

First of all, really glad that ChuckT and WVHillBilly have joined this conversation...

Secondly, I think ChuckT's post is pointing us in the right direction...

Profitable 3betting depends on our hand (sometimes) but is also dependent on: how our opponent tends to react to 3bets and how he plays post flop.

We really need some simple pre-flop scenarios to discuss... against a small cast of various Villains...

Like, we're on the button and face a standard raise from a player in MP.

Which hands should we 3bet against:

A) A 13/9 w/ an 87% fold to 3bet.

B) A 15/7 w/ a 50% fold to 3bet.

C) A 27/15 w/ a 80% fold to 3bet.

D) A 35/22 w/ a 60% fold to 3bet.

If those aren't good Villains... feel free to switch them out.

Or just ignore me...

Exactly.

Our 3bet range is kind of like the result of an equation, in which we factor table dynamics, our opponent's opening range, how he reacts to our 3bet, his postflop tendencies, etc.

The first 3 things we should look at are 1) his opening range, 2) how often he folds to 3bets, and 3) how often he 4bets. Your examples are a good start, but we need more info to draw any accurate conclusions without making general assumptions.

I made a video about 3betting when I was with stoxpoker, I'll probably post it/an article based on it soon. Should be helpful.

a bluff is when youre betting to get better hands to fold, betting for value is when you bet or raise in hopes of getting worse hands to call. So it's impossible to 3bet AA as a bluff preflop because we aren't trying to get better hands to fold(since there are none) and we're hoping to get calls from worse hands

Sure.

But, but it was in a conversation where general/specific concepts/situations were all being mixed together. The information was there but... too much noise and not enough signal.

One poster stated, "I'm not getting anywhere, so I'll ask you a question. Why do you 3-bet AA, KK, QQ, AK?"

I did read through the thread... it gave me a headache.

Also, at one point you recommended,
"The best thing to do would be to post a hand in the hand analysis part of the forum and wait for an answer..."

I think that's great advice for someone trying to learn how to play TP or over pairs on various boards but, I don't think that's good advice for someone trying to learn the ins and outs of 3betting. Particularly, 3bet bluffs...

Mainly, because we aren't going to finding as many opportunities to profitably 3bet compared to our opportunities to play TP, open raise, or steal blinds.

But even though we don't do it often, 3betting can be hugely profitable when we do... so we need to talk/think about it away from the table.

I think this thread will be a great way to get a grasp the different concepts of 3betting. Then we can take it to the tables and get some HH...

Sometimes, how we have access to information is as important as the information itself.

Ok so I've been analyzing some of my play based on the discussion going on here, and I think the stuff said has helped me discover what seems like a pretty big leak in my game.

Basically I think my 3bets based on a players tendencies postflop aren't too bad and I'm able to resteal my fair share of pots.

But I'm going way too far with hands that I think are in front of my opponents range, but are actually crushed by his continuation range. There are also a few hands where I'm in front preflop, but end up behind and losing a ton of money, I think I might need to brush up on playing in 3bet pots.

Yes. This is exactly what I'm trying to get across here. I have been hearing stuff along these lines lately but haven't completely been able to wrap my head around this.

The problem is I'm trying to get people to see why they 3-bet. I watched Qtips great video on playing a maniac. Once the maniac left near the end he got AKs and 3-bet it. Why did he 3-bet it? Not just because it was AKs, but because he had showed down a lot of weak hands. He figured his opponent might think that he is a total maniac (based on the stats he was playing to get the maniac). If our reasons for 3-bets are dumb like, "we think it annoys him" and things like that, I really think you need to be thinking about it a lot more.

Do I think what I said was completely wrong? Not really since my goal is to make the most money possible in every hand, and I don't think that means you have to 3-bet the top hands everytime.

Do you think you AJo is one of the top hands?

you were saying that 3betting AA is a bluff without knowing enough information about an opponent. I said it was impossible because no matter what, 3betting AA always for value preflop.