When to fold aces preflop?

#71 03-05-2008, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4aces07

FYP

did you just fix my post to something which is the same as what i said but written differently? If so, fair enough

just to add to the arguement

if you get it in with aces and have 25% of winning 8 additional stack, you take it instantly. With that stack size in the WSOP, you only need to play premiums to cash, or can use your big stack to run over any table. If you don't call with the aces, you will probably have to win, say 2 coinflips to cash. That amounts to a 25% chance, but for only 3 additional stacks.

8 stacks > 3 stack, i think

#72 03-05-2008, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odinscott

No offense but not really. I can lose a dollar. $25,000 is alot of money no matter how big your bankroll. Not only that, but playing a $1 tourney online, you can rebuy into another in the matter of minutes. People wait all year to get into WSOP or one of the WPT tourneys. Like you say, reality is different, because most people are going to play alot more reckless with a dollar, compared to 25 thousand dollars. If playing scared is not wanting to get knocked out of a 25,000 dollar buyin in the first hand, by folding AA in the face of 8 allins ahead of you, then consider me playing scared. I cant see how that little bit of edge, is worth putting your tourney life on the line. How is it not better to wait until later in the tourney to outplay your opponents and take no risk with your tourney life? (This is in reference to the situation: 25,000 dollar buyin, first hand, everybody is allin, you are BB - or it could be on the bubble in a satellite.) I mean again in reality this situation would never happen, but the point stands, that there are situations where it would be wise to fold AA preflop. I dont think that we can compare a $1 online situation with a once a year event like WSOP. Most people would probably take alot more risks in the dollar situation, but how many would put their WSOP life on the line with the same small edge?

I understand your point (and I think the same about $1 versus $25,000), but I assume we spoke about real situations.
I believe that it is more probable that you face which a player with 3 cards in his hand before you face to a situation of 8 players in an allin situation if the tourney have a buyin of 25,000 dollars.

#73 03-05-2008, 12:29 AM

Read these replies again. Basically Everything is there to tell you why folding aces preflop (except for the situations we have already been through) is wrong. I'm not posting in this thread any more. Like I said its not just my opinion, its a fact that folding is incorrect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4aces07

If you're playing in a big tournament that is above you're BR, then of course some people would fold aces preflop if there were multiple allins in front of them. I heard a story about someone in the main event on the first day who folded aces. There were 3 allins in front of him, he looked down at two red aces and folded, not wanting to risk going home so early.
So I can understand why some people would fold aces preflop. Either you're playing with scared money or you're in a satellite situation where it would be correct to fold.

But in any other situation, you looking to make the maximum +EV play.

In a $1 tournament or in a tournament that you play in regulalrly, you're not playing above you BR or with scared money. Therefore you would want to make the largest +EV decisions you can. That's how you win long term.
Going allin preflop with aces is +EV. And the more people that go allin with you, the higher a +EV play it is. It may mean higher variance, but it also means higher EV and that's all we care about.

If you are not in a satellite situation or another weird/rare situation (like at a final table where the chip stacks and payout have something to do with it), then folding aces preflop is wrong.
First hand of a $10 tournament you're in the BB. All 8 players in front of you go allin. You insta-call. Don't even think twice, just CALL. It is incorrect to fold and therefore you are losing money if you fold. Its not just my opinion, its a fact.

Please people stop asking and discussing whether or not to fold aces preflop. 99.9% of the time you go allin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robwhufc

This thread crops up every 3 or 4 months, and gets virtually identical responses each time.

Poker IS gambling. If you are unwilling to take 4/1 odds when you are 6/4 favourite to win, because you are a 4/6 favourite to lose, then you simply will not be a winning player. That is a basic fundamental of poker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by F Paulsson

Everything in this post is referring to non-satellite situations.

If you fold because it's a big tournament and you just don't want to get knocked out, I suggest you save your buy-in and not enter the tournament.

Also, for those of you saying it's better to play solid poker postflop instead of taking big risks preflop, I have this to tell you: You're not that good. How do I know that? Because no one is that good. Doyle/Gus/Phil Ivey/Whatever-Pro-Makes-You-Drool wouldn't ever fold in those situations, and I guarantee you they're better tournament players than you are.

Preflop, aces are the nuts. Don't fold the nuts. You're not good enough to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

these fold AA preflop threads never fail to be hilarious.

if you're letting the level of the buyin affect your play from a purely economic perspective, you shouldn't be playing that level of buyin to start with. given the exact same set of players with the exact same set of traits, effective play in a $1 tourney is no different from effective play in a $25k tourney (of course the given is not going to happen in reality, but it proves a point).

this is rather paradoxical as if you're considering folding AA here you're not going to be able to outplay most players simply because your understanding of the game is flawed and/or you're playing with scared money. if 3 players go in in front of you with all equal stacks and you have AA you're probably about 50% to quadruple your stack (too lazy to check with PStove). Your chip EV is basically +whatever your stack is. You simply will not come across better opportunities, no matter how good a player you are.

you don't have a slight edge, in the above example your EV is +your stack. postflop situations like that do not occur anywhere near often enough for you to be able to profitably pass up such an edge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irexes

If I was told I had a 25% chance of getting 9x the starting stack at the WSOP I'd take it in a heartbeat. Quite aside from the chance of getting that kind of stack being probably <25% anyway the additional equity of being that far ahead of the field would be huge.

#74 03-05-2008, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by switch0723

did you just fix my post to something which is the same as what i said but written differently? If so, fair enough

lol, I guess I did. I misread you post. I thought you said "lol at page 2 discussion" not "lol at 2 page discussion".

#75 03-05-2008, 1:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odinscott

equity win tie
Hand 0: 10.520% 11.22% 00.46% { 66+, ATs+, ATo+ }
Hand 1: 10.131% 10.81% 00.43% { 77+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 2: 09.493% 10.06% 00.47% { 88+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 3: 09.085% 09.58% 00.51% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 4: 07.667% 07.97% 00.54% { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 5: 08.466% 08.87% 00.53% { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 6: 08.646% 09.07% 00.52% { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 7: 08.555% 08.99% 00.51% { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 8: 27.438% 28.41% 02.04% { AA }

If these odds are telling me 8 people in the hand all-in vs. my AA and I only will win 27% of the time we'll I guess I have the correct pot odds to call. You guys that keep saying "I fold AA every time in this situation" are just trying to act like your smarter than everyone else. I don't care how much I buy in for I don't care how many people are all-in I CALL. If you don't have the balls to call with the best pre-flop hand than your never going to WIN a tournament. If just making the cash is your goal than why even play? I personally play to win.

I'LL SAY IT AGAIN... THOSE THAT SAY FOLD AA IN THIS SITUATION ARE JUST TRYING TO ACT LIKE THEY ARE BETTER THAN THE PEOPLE THAT WOULD CALL. Matter of fact I will peronsally send $10 to the first person that saves a screen shot of them folding AA pre-flop in a real money game/MTT or STT. The screen shot needs to be with a hand history and a after flop screen shot of the same hand with your hole cards "shadow'd" (when you put your mouse over your cards to show the folded hand).

Guess what I'll never recieve this because there isn't anyone taking part in this thread that would really do it. If you have done it before and can prove it I'll send them $10 and a skirt!

#76 03-05-2008, 1:55 PM

^^^ Ive folded kings on the button in an unopened pot on a cash table before, does that count?

P.S. trying to run to the toilet inbetween hands doesn't work

#77 03-05-2008, 3:32 PM

I folded aces preflop once. I ran downstairs to answer the phone and when I got back up, I had timed out.

I've since bought a second handset for my phone to keep upstairs. +EV, baby.

#78 03-05-2008, 3:33 PM

POKERSTARS GAME #15424147345: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2008/02/20 - 14:41:52 (ET)
Table 'Meissa IV' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: SuckYouDry ($154 in chips)
Seat 2: sars30 ($103.50 in chips)
Seat 4: FPau ($120 in chips)
Seat 5: snowpup08 ($75.50 in chips)
Seat 6: ohzo99 ($40.50 in chips)
sars30: posts small blind $1
FPau: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FPau [Ah As]
snowpup08: folds
ohzo99: raises $2 to $4
SuckYouDry: folds
sars30: folds
FPau has timed out
FPau: folds
FPau is sitting out
Loopez007 joins the table at seat #3
ohzo99 collected $5 from pot
ohzo99: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5 | Rake $0
Seat 1: SuckYouDry (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: sars30 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: FPau (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: snowpup08 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ohzo99 collected ($5)

#79 05-05-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F Paulsson

POKERSTARS GAME #15424147345: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2008/02/20 - 14:41:52 (ET)
Table 'Meissa IV' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: SuckYouDry ($154 in chips)
Seat 2: sars30 ($103.50 in chips)
Seat 4: FPau ($120 in chips)
Seat 5: snowpup08 ($75.50 in chips)
Seat 6: ohzo99 ($40.50 in chips)
sars30: posts small blind $1
FPau: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FPau [Ah As]
snowpup08: folds
ohzo99: raises $2 to $4
SuckYouDry: folds
sars30: folds
FPau has timed out
FPau: folds
FPau is sitting out
Loopez007 joins the table at seat #3
ohzo99 collected $5 from pot
ohzo99: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5 | Rake $0
Seat 1: SuckYouDry (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: sars30 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: FPau (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: snowpup08 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ohzo99 collected ($5)

You timed out and AA huh... wow that sucks. Funny thing is on $2/$4 limit you probably saved yourself some money. Low limit games are call-athons and you might have lost to A2345 vs. AAA45.

#80 08-05-2008, 12:07 AM

Never, early in a tourney. And yes fold them when you're on the bubble if you think other players at the table will knock each other out and enable you to get into the money. And this, only if a lot of $$ is raised and reraised preflop.

#81 08-05-2008, 3:36 AM

Tom - wouldn't you put the reraiser on KK, AK, QQ, at best if you have AA? I understand the idea of having others get knocked out and make the money, but wouldn't the extra chips be great to have when making a run for the win. I personally never think about just making the money I always try and win. Of course this could be why I bubble out a lot...

#82 09-05-2008, 3:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom McEvoy

Never, early in a tourney. And yes fold them when you're on the bubble if you think other players at the table will knock each other out and enable you to get into the money. And this, only if a lot of $$ is raised and reraised preflop.

Are you serious? Bubble exploitation: AA is the perfect hand to get your money in with in that spot...

#83 09-05-2008, 3:46 AM

u must call ..only think about folding if on the bubble or theres more than 1 all in before u act. but i would call in most cases...be strong..or u will be gone.....

#84 09-05-2008, 9:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom McEvoy

. And yes fold them when you're on the bubble if you think other players at the table will knock each other out and enable you to get into the money. And this, only if a lot of $$ is raised and reraised preflop.

+1 for

+

. The only "bubble" that this would apply to is a satellite where you'll either win entry or lose, and that's already been covered. On a normal graduated payscale, there is no excuse for bottling out to limp into the money, when you could be making a proper push at the big money which is significantly more (I know i'm only repeating what above posters have said).

#85 09-05-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zxghostxz

..only think about folding if on the bubble or theres more than 1 all in before u act. but i would call in most cases...be strong..or u will be gone.....

Be strong....... but I could fold.......... if there was a bigger chance i could lose...........so i might fold ...........but usually i'd be strong............and probably call...........(or fold).........

#86 09-05-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom McEvoy

Never, early in a tourney. And yes fold them when you're on the bubble if you think other players at the table will knock each other out and enable you to get into the money. And this, only if a lot of $$ is raised and reraised preflop.

I believe Mr McEvoy means that if you are short stacked and the initial raisers have you outchiped its best just to let them knock eachother out because if they knock eachother out and you make the money, you won't feel like you have spent the last few hours for nothing just to bubble, at least you may get your buy-in back and then some.
Faced with being the chip leader would make it the easy call.

#87 11-05-2008, 9:02 PM

id have to say ... fold , if 3+ people are all in chances are youll get outdrawn by a donk- just happened to me twice in 10 mins actually.

#88 11-05-2008, 9:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinedown.45

I believe Mr McEvoy means that if you are short stacked and the initial raisers have you outchiped its best just to let them knock eachother out because if they knock eachother out and you make the money, you won't feel like you have spent the last few hours for nothing just to bubble, at least you may get your buy-in back and then some.
Faced with being the chip leader would make it the easy call.

even if that's what he means, it's still silly

#89 13-05-2008, 6:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nevadanick

I totally agree with odinscott's replies. Have, and will again, fold those rockets preflop in the right situation. OK, so I wear a skirt, and have no nuts - BUT - I have chips and a chair. Which one's more important?

Those who will NEVER fold an AA hand preflop play NoLimitLuckem, not poker, imo.

The only situation folding AA is the correct move would be in a SAT. that you are def. going to finish in the top X of player that win their seat.

If your saying that playing AA is hoping to get "lucky" your crazy!!! AA will have the highest % to win in almost any situation. If you are considering that you are playing in a real tournament not a freeroll and it's close to the money and 2 people before you go all-in and you have AA then you have to figure that chances are 1 out of the other 2 players might have AK and the other maybe a pocket pair or similar. AA is still a 70% favorite vs. 2 players with hands like those and in a 4 way pot you will still be close to a 60% favorite. Now I understand that 40% of the time you might lose, but then again 60% of the time you just won a crap load of chips with a great chance at taking down the hole tournament.

I'll say it again. Those saying they would fold AA in a "real" non-sat tournament are just trying to act like they are better and smarter than the rest of us. I've been in that situation before with 2 players going all-in in front of me and then having to think about folding, but I couldn't get myself to fold AA.

#90 13-05-2008, 6:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odinscott

You will be eliminated 75% of the time, even though you do have odds against any one player, you are a 75% dog overall. How is it a correct call again? Simply because you have better odds against any one player? I guess you mean using the pot odds (even though you lose 75% of the time, you win more than 75% of the chips if you get lucky). I guess that I value my tourney life so much that, I would rather wait until another spot, where i have more than a 25% chance to win, before getting allin.

read up on cEV

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
< Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads for: When to fold aces preflop?
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Chip n a chair :)	ChuckTs	Poker Rooms	7	14-11-2006 5:08 AM
when to fold pokect aces	jph6696	Poker General	18	18-06-2006 3:23 PM
Ever fold Aces preflop?	RogerBezerk	Poker General	19	23-03-2006 2:17 PM


PokerStars is amongst the best poker sites online that accepts US players. Use PokerStars marketing code CARDSCHAT for an exclusive $75 bonus.	Absolute Poker offers online poker games to US players with a $500 sign up bonus.