are they donkey or not

#1 25-11-2007, 5:23 PM

In the history of the WSOP, can anyone name a single player who won and didn't play like a donkey?
That's easy you say. Doyle Brunson! Might I remind you that he won back to back WSOP tournaments with 10,2? If that's not a donkey hand, I don't know what is. To this day, the 10,2 is called Doyle Brunsons hand!
How about T.J. Cloutier? That's the J,9 of clubs. Forever know as the T.J. hand. He won alot of money over the years playing that less than premium hand. That might be a donkey hand!
Johnny Chan, one of the all time greats. There is no hand named after him. But when he won back to back titles, he still played hands that looked like crap, but kicked ass!
Of course there is Phil Helmouth. No hands named after him. Some could argue that when he won, he never played like a donkey! Maybe, he just acted like a Jackass when he lost!
How about Jamie Gold? Any takers? He seems like a very nice guy, but he plays alot of donkey hands. He just happens to get the best hand to lay down for his rags! I say he plays like a donkey!
Stu Unger? I never saw him play, but everything I read about him says that he was the best poker player of his generation. And the biggest Donkey of all times!
How about Johnny Moss? The old timers say he was a huge donkey. I wouldn't know. I just read that he was one of the best to ever play.
Let's look at some really great young players. Phil Ivey, Daniel Negraneau, Gus Hansen, Carlos Mortenson, Antonio Esfandiari and Patrick Antonious. A noteworthy group of poker players. Have you never seen them play like donkeys? Give me a break. They are master donkeys!
Ok, I can name one great player who doesn't ever play like donkey. Jennifer Harmon. But she has never won the main event either!
I was going to name a male non donkey player too, but the fact is I don't know one. Howard Lederer came very close. I listened to his comments on a T.V. Poker series one time and they were so accurate that I wanted to learn everything in his head. Then I saw him play in a tournament while the series was still on the air and I noticed that not only did he not heed his own advice. He played exactly opposite of what he had just recomended on the other channel. On one channel he was talking about smart, solid, cautious and aggressive poker, and on the other channel he was playing stupid, loose, agressive and weak poker.
Just something to think about. I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers. In any case, a little preening will put them right back where they belong.

I welcome your comments!

#2 25-11-2007, 5:33 PM

Someone in one of the other forums here just won with 7/2 os. They won a bunch off of someone who was holding AA. But the winner got a BB special and had just the right cards for the situation. Any other situation, the worst cards yeah?

So how much is it about the cards, and how much about how they play their cards?

Hansen plays hands regularly that I'd fold, but he seems to know how to play them. If I knew how to play them I'd play them too. I guess that's why he's a professional and I'm just a penny stakes guppy.

Oh well.

#3 25-11-2007, 5:38 PM

Doyle WON with 10 2, but heads up poker has very little to do with what cards you hold......I almost never bet what I have in my hand if I get to heads up.....You play aggressively and hope that you're more aggressive than the other guy. He didn't play like a donkey...Doyle played like a winner.

With that said.....EVERY poker player has made a donk decision.....that is EVERY player who has played more than 10 minutes.....if EVERYONE called with pocket aces or kings, poker would be a boring game for sure.

#4 25-11-2007, 5:55 PM

Ooh I just thought of another situation that could make someone look like a complete moron even if they aren't one. Okay, let's say they're just getting started in the perfect bluff. Right position, good table read. They raise, but someone with a real hand smooth calls. Anyway, flop comes and the would-be-bluffer's holding the nuts.

That happens too. And what should they do? Fold? Why? I really don't know the answers.

#5 25-11-2007, 9:46 PM

I see a basic problem with your definition of a donkey. Sure, Doyle got into a HU raisong w/10-2os. But, as has been noted, heads up poker is about dozens of factors that have nothing to do with the cards you hold preflop. That's not a donkey play, just situational poker. Joe Hachem? Raised with a 7=3os and filled in the straight. Donkey play? Hardly. The donkey play would've come if that flop had come down AA3, and he had contimued to raise and reraise against Danneman's A3. These are examples of representing strength in a HU situation, and poker is full of examples of how well this works.

To be a true donkey is to continue to try and play strongly in a situation where logic and common sense prove you're beaten Exanple, with 3 other players in a pot you get dealt AKh, and limp. The flop comes 4-5-6 clubs, with a Jd on the turn, and the 7c for a river card. You flat call all the way, and puch all in at the river. Now, THAT would be a donkish play.

#6 25-11-2007, 9:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokernut75

In the history of the WSOP, can anyone name a single player who won and didn't play like a donkey?
That's easy you say. Doyle Brunson! Might I remind you that he won back to back WSOP tournaments with 10,2? If that's not a donkey hand, I don't know what is. To this day, the 10,2 is called Doyle Brunsons hand!
How about T.J. Cloutier? That's the J,9 of clubs. Forever know as the T.J. hand. He won alot of money over the years playing that less than premium hand. That might be a donkey hand!
Johnny Chan, one of the all time greats. There is no hand named after him. But when he won back to back titles, he still played hands that looked like crap, but kicked ass!
Of course there is Phil Helmouth. No hands named after him. Some could argue that when he won, he never played like a donkey! Maybe, he just acted like a Jackass when he lost!
How about Jamie Gold? Any takers? He seems like a very nice guy, but he plays alot of donkey hands. He just happens to get the best hand to lay down for his rags! I say he plays like a donkey!
Stu Unger? I never saw him play, but everything I read about him says that he was the best poker player of his generation. And the biggest Donkey of all times!
How about Johnny Moss? The old timers say he was a huge donkey. I wouldn't know. I just read that he was one of the best to ever play.
Let's look at some really great young players. Phil Ivey, Daniel Negraneau, Gus Hansen, Carlos Mortenson, Antonio Esfandiari and Patrick Antonious. A noteworthy group of poker players. Have you never seen them play like donkeys? Give me a break. They are master donkeys!
Ok, I can name one great player who doesn't ever play like donkey. Jennifer Harmon. But she has never won the main event either!
I was going to name a male non donkey player too, but the fact is I don't know one. Howard Lederer came very close. I listened to his comments on a T.V. Poker series one time and they were so accurate that I wanted to learn everything in his head. Then I saw him play in a tournament while the series was still on the air and I noticed that not only did he not heed his own advice. He played exactly opposite of what he had just recomended on the other channel. On one channel he was talking about smart, solid, cautious and aggressive poker, and on the other channel he was playing stupid, loose, agressive and weak poker.
Just something to think about. I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers. In any case, a little preening will put them right back where they belong.

I welcome your comments!

Players dominating with lesser hands in key spots. Yep, must be donkeys.

What's your actual point? That professionals are bad players?

And what's with the railbirds links?

#7 25-11-2007, 9:57 PM

The problem with this observation is that what you see on TV is not representative of the long trek up to that spot.

#8 27-11-2007, 2:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reglardave

To be a true donkey is to continue to try and play strongly in a situation where logic and common sense prove you're beaten Exanple, with 3 other players in a pot you get dealt AKh, and limp. The flop comes 4-5-6 clubs, with a Jd on the turn, and the 7c for a river card. You flat call all the way, and puch all in at the river. Now, THAT would be a donkish play.

Yet it's a play I've seen time and time again. Very similar play just the other day. I have QJc and I flop a flush. He calls on flop and turn and the river's another club and he pushes all-in. I consider folding because he kind of played it like he had just the A or K (well, how I thought HE would play it, not how I'd play it lol). I call and he flips over AK, but no clubs. Gotta love it when that happens.

#9 27-11-2007, 3:20 PM

i don't know what post is more bizarre, this one or i am 55 years old,i still have a good shape,and my skin as silk?

#10 27-11-2007, 6:08 PM

wow. Glad I missed that odddd one.

#11 27-11-2007, 6:19 PM

This is true, the only thing this proves is that LUCK is a big part of the game and when you are feeling a hand to go with it. Everyone plays like a donk but if you keep catch the cards you might as well keep playing them.

#12 27-11-2007, 6:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcpoker11

This is true, the only thing this proves is that LUCK is a big part of the game and when you are feeling a hand to go with it. Everyone plays like a donk but if you keep catch the cards you might as well keep playing them.

Um, no. What it proves is that poker is not about "the cards" at all at the highest level.

#13 27-11-2007, 6:35 PM

This is a dumbass thread. All OP says is, "Look at player x. I've never seen him play, but he's a huge donkey! A donkey! Look at player y. He's a donkey too! I have no evidence, but my rant proves that pro players are donkeys! Just look at Phil Ivey, what a donkey!"

#14 27-11-2007, 7:09 PM

i saw vanquish raise J2 once, what a donkey

#15 27-11-2007, 8:50 PM

in heads up ther are no donkeys

#16 27-11-2007, 8:54 PM

i wonder if you asked all those people u mentioned in your post what their definition of what a donk is what there replies would b.

#17 27-11-2007, 11:02 PM

BTW pocket 9's black is the Hellmuth hand
pocket 9's red is the Gretsky

#18 27-11-2007, 11:32 PM

this thread is timely as I was watching the WSOP on ESPN last night and was thinking the same thing. If I played like a lot of the pro's in my regular tourneys and sit and go's i would be abused and called a donk, fish etc.

Sure, good play is the basis for it all but the more i watch the top end big money games, the more i think luck of the draw comes into play.

what annoys me most is that big babboon sucking out and carrying on like a pork-chop, when it was pure luck that got him over the line in a heads-up.

the shining light of it all is it gives guys like me hope!

#19 27-11-2007, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dweezel

BTW pocket 9's black is the Hellmuth hand
pocket 9's red is the Gretsky

secondededed, i was gunna say that

#20 27-11-2007, 11:47 PM

fwiw J2o is called the "vanquish hand"

#21 28-11-2007, 12:13 AM

my favorite is KK suited - the questionable hand

#22 28-11-2007, 1:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanquish

fwiw J2o is called the "vanquish hand"

This hand is a monster.

Im claiming J4s as my hand, though. I had a dream that I was going to win the WSOP in the future and I all had to do was play this hand over and over and over again.

#23 28-11-2007, 3:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philthy

Im claiming J4s as my hand, though. I had a dream that I was going to win the WSOP in the future and I all had to do was play this hand over and over and over again.

We know it as the flat tyre, but I'll start throwing "The Philthy" into my live patter and see if anyone picks up on it

#24 28-11-2007, 4:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokernut75

Let's look at some really great young players. Phil Ivey, Daniel Negraneau, Gus Hansen, Carlos Mortenson, Antonio Esfandiari and Patrick Antonious. A noteworthy group of poker players. Have you never seen them play like donkeys? Give me a break. They are master donkeys!

i'm pretty sure that if you played against these guys, they would take all of your money and wear your hat.

#25 28-11-2007, 4:58 AM

This hand is a monster.

"Im claiming J4s as my hand, though. I had a dream that I was going to win the WSOP in the future and I all had to do was play this hand over and over and over again."

now that' price-less, lol, but as for the whole donkment factor, I mean, look there are those who are great at what they do, and then, there's the rest of us. All those names you just mentioned up there, yes they may play stupid, but you know something, they play at those events and well not trying to be rude and the rest of us can't.... They bought cars, houses, and made there bread and butter on poker, that being said, they must be doing something right, correct?

As Kisame from Naruto would say "Hi" means yes

#26 28-11-2007, 5:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokernut75

In the history of the WSOP, can anyone name a single player who won and didn't play like a donkey?
That's easy you say. Doyle Brunson! Might I remind you that he won back to back WSOP tournaments with 10,2? If that's not a donkey hand, I don't know what is. To this day, the 10,2 is called Doyle Brunsons hand!
How about T.J. Cloutier? That's the J,9 of clubs. Forever know as the T.J. hand. He won alot of money over the years playing that less than premium hand. That might be a donkey hand!
Johnny Chan, one of the all time greats. There is no hand named after him. But when he won back to back titles, he still played hands that looked like crap, but kicked ass!
Of course there is Phil Helmouth. No hands named after him. Some could argue that when he won, he never played like a donkey! Maybe, he just acted like a Jackass when he lost!
How about Jamie Gold? Any takers? He seems like a very nice guy, but he plays alot of donkey hands. He just happens to get the best hand to lay down for his rags! I say he plays like a donkey!
Stu Unger? I never saw him play, but everything I read about him says that he was the best poker player of his generation. And the biggest Donkey of all times!
How about Johnny Moss? The old timers say he was a huge donkey. I wouldn't know. I just read that he was one of the best to ever play.
Let's look at some really great young players. Phil Ivey, Daniel Negraneau, Gus Hansen, Carlos Mortenson, Antonio Esfandiari and Patrick Antonious. A noteworthy group of poker players. Have you never seen them play like donkeys? Give me a break. They are master donkeys!
Ok, I can name one great player who doesn't ever play like donkey. Jennifer Harmon. But she has never won the main event either!
I was going to name a male non donkey player too, but the fact is I don't know one. Howard Lederer came very close. I listened to his comments on a T.V. Poker series one time and they were so accurate that I wanted to learn everything in his head. Then I saw him play in a tournament while the series was still on the air and I noticed that not only did he not heed his own advice. He played exactly opposite of what he had just recomended on the other channel. On one channel he was talking about smart, solid, cautious and aggressive poker, and on the other channel he was playing stupid, loose, agressive and weak poker.
Just something to think about. I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers. In any case, a little preening will put them right back where they belong.

I welcome your comments!

Good post Pokernut I agree 100% everyone has there favorite hands they like to bring in with and when they hit the usually are sleeper hands because they are suited runners low pockets gapped suited cards. I myself love the hand 89 clubs and won my first casino tourney in Atlantic City heads up against Ak os . I flopped the full boat and within minutes was $ 5200 richer. Every good player plays a tight aggressive style but sometime during the game you have to mix in hands like the ones you mentioned and man are they great when they hit. The key to winning poker in my book is gut feeling on your read of the opponents starting hand play and of course analysing pot value how many outs and percentages of winning at showdown. As long as you analyze the flop turn and river and ask yourself where you stand in the hand you can't go wrong. Its amazing how many people online will just fill up the pot while you check down with the nutz. Worse mistakes are all in pf with Ak AQ AJ A 10 suited or unsuited unless you have no choice and the blinds are killing you. I hate cold calling and the only purpose of these hands is to buy out the pot. I have lost more mtt's with that hand while learning to play through the years. Then my other least favorite hand all in is Johhny boys. All great players win and lose races. The only thing to figure out before you make that all in call is will your hand hold up on the dice roll. All pros are Donkeys when they need to be. Otherwise they would not get any action when they lead off with the raise. Best of Luck to everone and when you see Donkey Kong 79 just fold!!!!

#27 28-11-2007, 5:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naruto_miu

This hand is a monster.

"Im claiming J4s as my hand, though. I had a dream that I was going to win the WSOP in the future and I all had to do was play this hand over and over and over again."

now that' price-less, lol, but as for the whole donkment factor, I mean, look there are those who are great at what they do, and then, there's the rest of us. All those names you just mentioned up there, yes they may play stupid, but you know something, they play at those events and well not trying to be rude and the rest of us can't.... They bought cars, houses, and made there bread and butter on poker, that being said, they must be doing something right, correct?

As Kisame from Naruto would say "Hi" means yes

One day Naruto one day my brother!!!!

#28 28-11-2007, 5:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefer77

i'm pretty sure that if you played against these guys, they would take all of your money and wear your hat.

Played against Gus Hanson once at the Borgata open last year. Bluffed him out of a hand with my Ace high flush draw. Thats my best poker moment so far... He is a awsome player and great guy to chat with also. the only time I was nervous was when I got moved to his table got situated then laid eyes on him. I ordered a water and sat out a few hands to watch him play. Best seat in the house!!!! Best Of luck you all... Unlucky 79

#29 28-11-2007, 5:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monoxide

my favorite is KK suited - the questionable hand

KK suited hmmm is that a full tilt special?? LOL

#30 28-11-2007, 5:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliengenius

Um, no. What it proves is that poker is not about "the cards" at all at the highest level.

Play the players not the cards I agree with AG 100%
In the back of there mind they have a doubt about there cards played. You just need to make that thought become a reality and make them think they are beat.

#31 28-11-2007, 5:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanquish

This is a dumbass thread. All OP says is, "Look at player x. I've never seen him play, but he's a huge donkey! A donkey! Look at player y. He's a donkey too! I have no evidence, but my rant proves that pro players are donkeys! Just look at Phil Ivey, what a donkey!"

He haw he haw we saw a he haw donkey make a dumb call. Let the cards bring out the donkey in us all when need be.

#32 28-11-2007, 5:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigpen02

The problem with this observation is that what you see on TV is not representative of the long trek up to that spot.

I agree the hard work is getting into the money. Once you are in the play loosens up and let the card race begin as you need to win races when need be.

#33 28-11-2007, 5:22 AM

stop posting 100 times in a row in one thread plz

#34 29-11-2007, 5:05 AM

Okay, OP was talking about The Main Event right? Ah hell, I'm still trying to figure out how these guys are donkeys...

But all together. Johnny Chan has like 10 bracelets right? And I can't figure how a complete donkey could have a collection like that. It's beyond me. But then I turn into Homer Simpson at the thought of 10 bracelets: "Ooh Shiny, *drools*". Yeah right, who am I fooling? I turn into Homer at the thought of one bracelet, and it needn't be WSOP I'll settle for a tennis bracelet

.

Oops, sorry, went into girl-mode, and the thought of jewelry sent me into a tizzy.

Back on topic, and even though I'm not completely new, I wouldn't consider myself to be a very good player. It's like, I know I'm not the best, but I'm not the worst either.

So, I thought once heads up there were just way more outs. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, just an absolute ton of wiggle room for both sides to bluff/steal blinds. Well, that's how it is in sit n' gos. Why not all heads up matches?

And still, nobody's explained to me how they're donkeys. I just want an explanation, because I am a donkey and own my donkage.

But then maybe I'm taking it a bit personally because I admire all the players listed in one way or another? Except for Jamie Gold. It's got nothing to do with his skills or lack thereof. He just creeps me out. For some reason he creeps me out. Only on television though. Never met him, might be a nice guy.


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