Showing Cards at Showdown

Ok, guys. Some input, please. I have consulted my on-hand library of poker books, including Hoyle's Rules of Card Games, and at least a half-dozen internet poker reference sites. The question here is the rule for showing of hole cards if the hand is bet through the river and goes to a showdown.

My frustration on the subject sprang from Ultimate Bet's policy of revealing both hands in a showdown, winner and loser(s). I routinely utilize the "automuck" feature, as I do not wish to give my opponents any unnecessary insight into my decisions at the table. However, the automuck choice is ignored on Ultimatebet when a showdown occurs, and all hands are arbitrarily revealed.

My confusion is that every single source I've consulted on the rules of Texas Hold 'Em recognizes and protects the right of the loser NOT to be forced to show his hole cards. The rules state that after all betting after the river card has been completed, the first active player seated to the left of the last player to call reveals his cards. If the other players, in turn, cannot beat his hand, they have the option of showing their cards or mucking them. The only exception is for suspected cheating or collusion, in which case the dealer may demand that the cards be shown to the table. (Of course, it is customary to display the cards of all participants in an "all-in" situation. The above rule applies only to hands which play out to a normal conclusion.)

If anyone can dispute this interpretation, which seems to be both standard and universal, please quote your verifiable source. If I'm wrong here, I seriously need to know. This is pretty basic stuff, I think. Here's what the Ultimatebet customer service supervisor had to say after several exchanged emails on the subject:

"Dear Rammer Jammer,

The rules of poker absolutely allow for the showing of mucked cards.

We have consulted with two of our poker consultants, Annie Duke and Phil
Hellmuth. It is a rule of Hold 'em that if a hand goes to Showdown then the
table is allowed to request to see mucked cards. This is ONLY when the hand
goes to showdown.

Whenever a hand reaches a showdown, the mucked cards are shown as a safeguard
against collusion...this was recommended by the group of pros that we utilize
(two players working together could result in hands being mucked that should
not have been). Mucked cards are only viewable to players at the table...
observers cannot see them, which is why they seem to appear "sometimes".

This feature has been part of the product since day one.

Based on this, our programmers were instructed to design the code to show
mucked cards when reaching Showdown.

Thanks for taking the time to write.

Kind Regards,

Chris
Customer Service Supervisor."

All due respect to Annie Duke, Phil Helmuth, and Ultimate Bet, but all I know is what I read and everything I read says they're full of shit. Any thoughts?

Umm, they're absolutely right. Any player has the right to request to see cards that are mucked upon showdown. Like they say, this rule is meant to prevent collusion, which is why it is seen as a breach of etiquette in a live game to request to see mucked cards purely or your own benefit (information). You even touch on this yourself before pasting their email to you.

Many other sites may not directly show mucked cards, but they're usually accessible by looking through the hand history - again, only if you're playing at the table (Party, Stars, and others do this). There are programs which used this stored hand history to display mucked cards on these sites, and the sites have no problem with it.

When you order a hand history sent to your email, even mucked cards are then revealed in that correspondance.

good thread Rammer good info never knew the rule about showdowns and good replies from dorkus and dblo thanks for that now I be looking at that stat. when I request my histories never even crossed my mind to look for those things before this thread as you can see still learning litto at a time

I always seen it as a "pay to show" policy. If your raise is called then you must show your cards. Another player has paid for a look. Now the caller can muck his cards if he/she likes. Well thats the rule as ive always played it. Like you Rammer i never show cards unless i have to.

But if im wrong im wrong and ill have to adjust my game accordinly

If you play on Party, request a hand history of a hand where at showdown the losing hand was mucked. At the end it will say something like:

KingKong shows {Ac-As} for three of a Kind Aces
DingDong doesn't show {7s-2c}

I have the same policy as tenbob on showing. I don't show unless I have to. In the live tourneys that I play, we are not required to show our cards. We can muck til our little hearts content. Although I have noticed that in online games, they automatically show my cards sometimes (even though my automuck box is firmly checked.