Recent poker hand controversy

BlueNowhere · Oct 11, 2011

At a local tourney and me and another guy are fairly well stacked, I have him covered. I make a nut flush on the river, he donk bets into me and I look at him for about half a minute before asking him how much he has. He doesn't really respond, just mumbles so I told him if he didn't say I'm going all in. He started counting and then as he was saying I moved all in, he folded and started saying it was a dirty trick, I just said your body language and voice told me everything I needed to know (obviously not true, I was going all in anyway, thought i'd try abit of talking for a change). Anyway he seems to be pretty wound up by that and after getting lucky against someone he has me fairly well covered but seems to be trying to get into a pot against me. I end up against him with two pair, he re-raises so I raise half my stack instantly. He asks how much I have and I just blank him (I'm doing the hellmuth here as well, hands over mouth, not looking anywhere). He then starts saying I have to tell him, he asks twice again and I continue to ignore him. After a few minutes he ends up shoving I call and he loses. He then starts saying its appaling etiquette and a few others at the table agree with him. I argued that it wasn't and he was just pissed because I'd outplayed him in both pots and he'd let me get inside his head. I argued that my objective as a poker player is to win as many chips as possible. Don't play that much live poker so unsure if I'm correct on the etiquette, I was sure but I was the only one who seemed to think that it wasn't bad etiquette to ignore him when he asks, especially given the context when i think it's more likely to make him do something questionble. Who was correct here?

taaron · Oct 11, 2011

Have played quite a considerable amount live Mtt's/ cash. To me its a ton of fun and in alot of ways I prefer live. Etiquette is important to me, but imho you did not act rudely or improperly; in fact, it seems like you really did get inside his head, which is one thing that is alot easier to do live.

There is a greater opportunity to take things personally live. . .its a whole different venue, but I have actually done the exact same thing on 2 seperate occasions. One of which was me (cash table 2/2 nlhe) w/ a $50 chip tucked under the $10 chips next to the $5 chips. Villain asked me what my stack was and leaned back in my chair but did not say a word, he shoved thinking he had me covered, and then blew up after losing the hand, about "hiding" my 1 $50 chip. . .lol. . .w/e. . .

BlueNowhere · Oct 11, 2011

taaron said:
Have played quite a considerable amount live Mtt's/ cash. To me its a ton of fun and in alot of ways I prefer live. Etiquette is important to me, but imho you did not act rudely or improperly; in fact, it seems like you really did get inside his head, which is one thing that is alot easier to do live.

There is a greater opportunity to take things personally live. . .its a whole different venue, but I have actually done the exact same thing on 2 seperate occasions. One of which was me (cash table 2/2 nlhe) w/ a $50 chip tucked under the $10 chips next to the $5 chips. Villain asked me what my stack was and leaned back in my chair but did not say a word, he shoved thinking he had me covered, and then blew up after losing the hand, about "hiding" my 1 $50 chip. . .lol. . .w/e. . .

DIdn't think it was but the others seemed pretty adament that it was.

I'm not an expert on etiquette but I thought hiding your high value chips (always been told higher denominations at the front) was pretty bad form?

PotluckXXI · Oct 11, 2011

I read in one of my books (professional NLHE or Theory of poker) that you are supposed to have all your high chips in front of your stack (as opposed to buried in back) also when someone asks you how much you have you are supposed to tell them. While I don't think what you did was unethical, getting someone steaming then felting them can be dangerous in a live game. He may wait for you in the parking lot and either assult you or worse.

Poker Orifice · Oct 11, 2011

PotluckXXI;1800991 He may wait for you in the parking lot and either assult you or worse.[/quote said:
What if you're 265lbs. & bullet-proof?

taaron · Oct 11, 2011

PotluckXXI said:
He may wait for you in the parking lot and either assult you or worse.

I'm trying to think of what would be "worse"?

lmao though. . . .

And honestly i forgot i even had a $50 chip. . . .heres the thing. . .putting it in front. . .1 chip. . .amidst the many chips stacked in front of me on a cash table. . .nope. . .

don't know what your LIVE locale is but where mine are there is no way security is not omnipresent at these places. . . .plus who doesn't like a good tumble. . .??

Poker Orifice · Oct 11, 2011

Pretty sure you don't have to respond but chips need to be stacked/displayed so they're able to see them.

PotluckXXI · Oct 11, 2011

Worse is he pulls out his .357, I'm in Texas so a lot of people have guns. Oh and I'm 6'2" 240lbs and a former paratrooper, but sadly not bulletproof. I'll look up the article when I get home.

taaron · Oct 11, 2011

PotluckXXI said:
Worse is he pulls out his .357, I'm in Texas so a lot of people have guns. Oh and I'm 6'2" 240lbs and a former paratrooper, but sadly not bulletproof. I'll look up the article when I get home.

not if i pull out my ninja throwing stars and take him down first, w/ my cat like reflexes!. . . . .

.i know what ur saying and agree w/ you. . .along the lines of ethical live play. . . .but there is no rule about HAVING to talk and say I have $x in chips. . .as long as they can look and see its all good. . .if they wanted to they could even stand up to get a better vantage point. . .meh

Chemist · Oct 11, 2011

BlueNowhere said:
DIdn't think it was but the others seemed pretty adament that it was.

I'm not an expert on etiquette but I thought hiding your high value chips (always been told higher denominations at the front) was pretty bad form?

Not just bad form it is not allowed.
A good dealer should have spotted it earlier and made sure it was always at the front.

I don't like this rule because I would prefer to keep the higher chips more secure and closer to me, surrounded and protected by the lower ones, not to hide them or make them less visible, just more safe.

But rules is rules.

And I would rather they were known about by opponents so they don't think they can bully a short stack, but can see a formidable power tower.

(in fact put some smaller chips under the high value ones to make the stack taller).

brank · Oct 11, 2011

@OP...

You did nothing wrong. Perfectly fine. You never have to answer when someone asks you how many chips you have. That is the dealer's responsibility. You did needle him after you won the hand though and that can be considered bad etiquette.

On the issue of high value chips. They must absolutely be visible. People can always ask the dealer how many chips you have and they will make them visible so you may as well make them visible.

Stu_Ungar · Oct 11, 2011

BlueNowhere said:
At a local tourney and me and another guy are fairly well stacked, I have him covered. I make a nut flush on the river, he donk bets into me and I look at him for about half a minute before asking him how much he has. He doesn't really respond, just mumbles so I told him if he didn't say I'm going all in. He started counting and then as he was saying I moved all in, he folded and started saying it was a dirty trick, I just said your body language and voice told me everything I needed to know (obviously not true, I was going all in anyway, thought i'd try abit of talking for a change). Anyway he seems to be pretty wound up by that and after getting lucky against someone he has me fairly well covered but seems to be trying to get into a pot against me. I end up against him with two pair, he re-raises so I raise half my stack instantly. He asks how much I have and I just blank him (I'm doing the hellmuth here as well, hands over mouth, not looking anywhere). He then starts saying I have to tell him, he asks twice again and I continue to ignore him. After a few minutes he ends up shoving I call and he loses. He then starts saying its appaling etiquette and a few others at the table agree with him. I argued that it wasn't and he was just pissed because I'd outplayed him in both pots and he'd let me get inside his head. I argued that my objective as a poker player is to win as many chips as possible. Don't play that much live poker so unsure if I'm correct on the etiquette, I was sure but I was the only one who seemed to think that it wasn't bad etiquette to ignore him when he asks, especially given the context when i think it's more likely to make him do something questionble. Who was correct here?

Actually I think he is right and blanking him was bad etiquette.

You do not have to give a chip count when asked.

However the etiquette is that if you ask for a chip count then you are agreeing to give chip counts when asked.

He did start to count his chips when you asked, therefore its bad etiquette to not reciprocate.

Doyle Brunson is very upfront about this, he dosent give chip counts, but he dosent ask for the either.

Someone like Tom Dwan regularly asks for chip counts and I have never seen him refuse to give one when asked.

taaron · Oct 11, 2011

brank said:
@OP...

You did nothing wrong. Perfectly fine. You never have to answer when someone asks you how many chips you have. That is the dealer's responsibility. You did needle him after you won the hand though and that can be considered bad etiquette.

On the issue of high value chips. They must absolutely be visible. People can always ask the dealer how many chips you have and they will make them visible so you may as well make them visible.

see bolded/underlined
this is my point exactly!. . .any1 w/ reasonable live experience appreciates this. . .

Stu_Ungar · Oct 11, 2011

taaron said:
There is a greater opportunity to take things personally live. . .its a whole different venue, but I have actually done the exact same thing on 2 seperate occasions. One of which was me (cash table 2/2 nlhe) w/ a $50 chip tucked under the $10 chips next to the $5 chips. Villain asked me what my stack was and leaned back in my chair but did not say a word, he shoved thinking he had me covered, and then blew up after losing the hand, about "hiding" my 1 $50 chip. . .lol. . .w/e. . .

Thats not only a cheap trick, its against the rules and IMO the floor could have reduced his bet to what he thought he was betting, in accordance with Roberts Rules and you should have received a verbal warning.

taaron · Oct 11, 2011

Stu_Ungar said:
Thats not only a cheap trick, its against the rules and IMO the floor could have reduced his bet to what he thought he was betting, in accordance with Roberts Rules and you should have received a verbal warning.

I agree w/ you completely; the dealer did in fact spread my chips b4 hand, as I asked him 2, albeit after individual snap called after i had immediately leaned back. . ."floor" even asked dealer, and was agreed on table that my opponent had madea snap raise immediately after i leaned back. . .giving the dealer no time to really respond. . . ; out of respect though yes i would respond I'm just saying its not neccesary, as etiquette is very important to me, all "joking around" aside!

BlueNowhere · Oct 11, 2011

Poker Orifice said:
Pretty sure you don't have to respond but chips need to be stacked/displayed so they're able to see them.

They were visible and I believe he had a rough idea. I think he was more trying to get me back for earlier when I got him to say and shoved as he was saying.

Stu_Ungar · Oct 11, 2011

taaron said:
I agree w/ you completely; the dealer did in fact spread my chips b4 hand, as I asked him 2, albeit after individual snap called after i had immediately leaned back. . ."floor" even asked dealer, and was agreed on table that my opponent had madea snap raise immediately after i leaned back. . .giving the dealer no time to really respond. . . ; out of respect though yes i would respond I'm just saying its not neccesary, as etiquette is very important to me, all "joking around" aside!

Your not following me.

The hiding the chip intentionally or unintentionally is against the rules

PROCEDURES
19. Any player is entitled to a clear view of an opponent’s chips. Higher denomination chips should be easily visible.

No limit rules

12. Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has been caused by that action. Example: Player A bets $300, player B reraises to $1200, and Player C puts $300 into the pot and says, “call.” It is obvious that player C believes the bet to be only $300 and he should be allowed to withdraw his $300 and reconsider his wager. A bettor should not show down a hand until the amount put into the pot for a call seems reasonably correct, or it is obvious that the caller understands the amount wagered. The decision-maker is allowed considerable discretion in ruling on this type of situation. A possible rule-of-thumb is to disallow any claim of not understanding the amount wagered if the caller has put eighty percent or more of that amount into the pot.

As for you giving the chip count, you do not have to. However its bad etiquette to ask for chip counts (as OP did) get chip counts (the guy was counting) and then not give a chip count when asked.

Had OP not asked for a chip count, then fine but he did ask for one which means he is now bound by etiquette to give them when asked.

baudib1 · Oct 11, 2011

OP: Don't act like a douchebag, it's -EV.

BlueNowhere · Oct 11, 2011

Stu_Ungar said:
Actually I think he is right and blanking him was bad etiquette.

You do not have to give a chip count when asked.

However the etiquette is that if you ask for a chip count then you are agreeing to give chip counts when asked.

He did start to count his chips when you asked, therefore its bad etiquette to not reciprocate.

Doyle Brunson is very upfront about this, he dosent give chip counts, but he dosent ask for the either.

Someone like Tom Dwan regularly asks for chip counts and I have never seen him refuse to give one when asked.

Yea thats what I'm not sure about. Like I say I don't play anywhere near as much live as online, so not paticularly brushed up on everything but seemed to remember that I'd read you don't have to say anything. I couldn't argue it mid-hand either when he was asking as my plan was to not say anything and give nothing away, so I couldn't start saying that I wasn't giving one as that defeated the purpose of me not giving one.

I was jsut figuring he knew how many chip I had roughly, they were laid out fairly clearly for counting and he was just trying to do to me what i did to him, except I had a decent hand both times.

Stu_Ungar · Oct 11, 2011

baudib1 said:
OP: Don't act like a douchebag, it's -EV.

LOL or don't ask for chip counts

taaron · Oct 11, 2011

Stu_Ungar said:
Your not following me.

The hiding the chip intentionally or unintentionally is against the rules

Actually i truly am following you, but nonetheless appreciate your critique; I did not intend to post the whole story and thought the cliffs would suffice, but much was left out. . .make chips available for all to see. . .but my bad for not explaining. . .as it is the rules and proper etiquette to not hide any chips. . .the OP did not hide any chips and therefore is not in the wrong. . . .dealer job is to evaluate the table outside of the fray. .

Stu_Ungar · Oct 11, 2011

BlueNowhere said:
Yea thats what I'm not sure about. Like I say I don't play anywhere near as much live as online, so not paticularly brushed up on everything but seemed to remember that I'd read you don't have to say anything. I couldn't argue it mid-hand either when he was asking as my plan was to not say anything and give nothing away, so I couldn't start saying that I wasn't giving one as that defeated the purpose of me not giving one.

I was jsut figuring he knew how many chip I had roughly, they were laid out fairly clearly for counting and he was just trying to do to me what i did to him, except I had a decent hand both times.

It dosent matter, once you ask for a count you are agreeing to give them.

Its not a rule violation its a an etiquette violation.

BlueNowhere · Oct 11, 2011

baudib1 said:
OP: Don't act like a douchebag, it's -EV.

I took down the tourney after this guy doubled me up, +ev. I didn't think i was acting like a douchebag, as explained in the original post it was based alot on what happened in previous hands and I thought he might get them all in. The only thing that I would class as bieng a douchebag are callining the clock, hiding chips, talking in other players hands and kicking someone when they've just lost. I only mocked him slightly when he started being abusive and I called it how I saw it.

Stu_Ungar · Oct 11, 2011

BlueNowhere said:
I took down the tourney after this guy doubled me up, +ev. I didn't think i was acting like a douchebag, as explained in the original post it was based alot on what happened in previous hands and I thought he might get them all in. The only thing that I would class as bieng a douchebag are callining the clock, hiding chips, talking in other players hands and kicking someone when they've just lost. I only mocked him slightly when he started being abusive and I called it how I saw it.

Well now you know otherwise!

baudib1 · Oct 11, 2011

I would call what you did as being a douchebag. If someone asks you for a chip count just answer, is that so hard? People aren't getting any information from you saying, "About 5,000" or something and if they think they are they will outlevel themselves more often than not.

I wouldn't congratulate yourself too much for outplaying him or getting in his head, either. You had him beat twice, once with the nuts, and he folded once and shoved once.

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