Question regarding RNGs.

#1 25th October 2009, 1:43 AM

I've seen this brought up at another forum a few times discussing the difference between Full Tilts RNG and Poker Stars RNG. The posters claimed that Stars does a shuffle and then the deck is locked in, just like it would be if you shuffled a real deck. They claimed that Full Tilt has a deck that continuously shuffles throughout the hand.

Is this true? If it is true, how can Full Tilts RNG be considered legit? Am I missing something here? If it's constantly shuffling, then the next card coming depends entirely on the amount of time taken before the last player to act clicks.

#2 25th October 2009, 1:48 AM

so what? the odds are the same.

#3 25th October 2009, 2:08 AM

Yes, I realize it isn't helping anyone. It's the same for everyone.

My question was..is this true? I'd just like to know for myself. If the time it takes to make decisions and click determines which card comes next, then I'd rather not be playing on that particular site. That's not a realistic deck. In my opinion, it's ridiculous.

#4 25th October 2009, 2:28 AM

I've read of that difference before, I forget which one was which and I don't care to remember. In my opinion, its ridiculous to worry about. You can always just email support and ask the sites yourself, they'll tell you.

#5 25th October 2009, 2:37 AM

Yes its true.
PS uses a locked deck and FTP constant shuffle.

Just read about it here http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng/ and here http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/random-number-generator

#6 25th October 2009, 3:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D'wilius

In my opinion, its ridiculous to worry about.

QFT

There is absolutely no difference to the outcome of a hand by using one method instead of the other. The odds of the next card being whatever is the same no matter what.

#7 25th October 2009, 3:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindri_93

Yes its true.
PS uses a locked deck and FTP constant shuffle.

Just read about it here http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng/ and here http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/random-number-generator

Thank you for a useful response, although I didn't read anything at those links that answered the question. I didn't see anything that stated Poker Stars has a locked deck or that Full Tilt has a continuous shuffle.

#8 25th October 2009, 3:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Daniels

QFT

There is absolutely no difference to the outcome of a hand by using one method instead of the other. The odds of the next card being whatever is the same no matter what.

What? Yes, the next card coming is totally random, but there can certainly be a difference in the outcome of a hand if it all depends on when that last click was made. Think about it. Player A is last to act and calls after 3 seconds while a deck is continuously shuffling. A card is dealt. What if Player A takes 8 seconds to make the call while the deck is continuously shuffling? You get a different card dealt.

#9 25th October 2009, 3:54 AM

you may or may not get a different card. all you know for sure is the cards shuffled 5 seconds longer.

#10 25th October 2009, 4:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardplayer52

you may or may not get a different card. all you know for sure is the cards shuffled 5 seconds longer.

True, but it can be a different card if it's a continuous shuffle. I guess it's just me, but this blows my mind to think this is how cards are dealt.

Imagine going to a home game or casino where the dealer deals out the hole cards, then starts shuffling the deck. Anyone would flip out over that.

#11 25th October 2009, 4:17 AM

fulltilt does this so people can never know what cards are to be dealt. imagine if someone could some how see the cards before there dealt. and this also helps to make sure the cards are random.

#12 25th October 2009, 4:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardplayer52

fulltilt does this so people can never know what cards are to be dealt. imagine if someone could some how see the cards before there dealt. and this also helps to make sure the cards are random.

I can somewhat understand it helping if a person had somehow hacked the site and could possibly see the cards coming, but I still don't bye it. If Stars' RNG locks after a shuffle and has also been tested and certified by the same people, then I see no reason for a continuous shuffle. No matter how you look at it, it's not realistic. Decks are not supposed to be shuffled during hands.

#13 25th October 2009, 5:05 AM

I have not looked for links..but it is well-known in poker community that the two card rooms use the two scenarios presented. SO the one room..you can skip saying, "I should have called" when you hit quads...cuase it most likely would not have come that way had you called

#14 27th October 2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CasperJames

I can somewhat understand it helping if a person had somehow hacked the site and could possibly see the cards coming, but I still don't bye it. If Stars' RNG locks after a shuffle and has also been tested and certified by the same people, then I see no reason for a continuous shuffle. No matter how you look at it, it's not realistic. Decks are not supposed to be shuffled during hands.

it really makes no difference what so ever. really think about it. what if it were only a 3 card deck? With an A,K, and Q. If you flipped the top card what are the odds of it being an A? Now if the deck kept shuffling then what are the odds? IMO it's silly to think of it because it will not help you one way or another.

#15 27th October 2009, 4:06 PM

I'll just agree to disagree. You may think it's silly, but I don't. I'll never deposit there now that I know this. I fully understand that it makes no difference as far as fairness, but it's still flawed in my opinion. It's not like a "real" deck being used if the cards continue to shuffle. I think I'll try this at my next home game and see how everyone reacts.

#16 27th October 2009, 9:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CasperJames

I've seen this brought up at another forum a few times discussing the difference between Full Tilts RNG and Poker Stars RNG. The posters claimed that Stars does a shuffle and then the deck is locked in, just like it would be if you shuffled a real deck. They claimed that Full Tilt has a deck that continuously shuffles throughout the hand.

Is this true? If it is true, how can Full Tilts RNG be considered legit? Am I missing something here? If it's constantly shuffling, then the next card coming depends entirely on the amount of time taken before the last player to act clicks.

I think you are correct mate! Wally

That is exactly what I have heard and from a very good source...FT cards are constantly being shuffled after each play, flop, Turn etc

#17 27th October 2009, 9:14 PM

I wouldn't care if you shuffled after every card you dealt or turned over on the board. It's irrelevant. Every card remaining in the deck could be the next card, shuffling does not change that. The only issue with doing it in a home game is the time it takes to do it, online that's not an issue.

#18 28th October 2009, 6:47 AM

i heard neither site uses a burn card. try that in your home game too.

#19 28th October 2009, 5:16 PM

lol. I know that wouldn't go over well.

#20 28th October 2009, 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WEC

I have not looked for links..but it is well-known in poker community that the two card rooms use the two scenarios presented. SO the one room..you can skip saying, "I should have called" when you hit quads...cuase it most likely would not have come that way had you called

Here is the link to the description for the Stars shuffle. It describes their process for setting the entire deck before the deal starts.
http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/features/security/

Below is a copy of an e-mail I received from the Stars tech department last year when I asked the same question directly (with a portion deleted that related to a second question). It confirms that the Stars deck is fully set and locked during the play of that hand.
-------------------------
Hello xxxxxx,

Thanks for your email and for your intriguing questions. I will do my
best to address them completely.

First of all, as in a real life casino, the cards are shuffled, the deck
is set and the hands are dealt. If a player folds the next player will
get the card that WAS coming. It does not change.

<snipped>

Regards,

Patrick K.
PokerStars Support Team
------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by CasperJames

I'll just agree to disagree. You may think it's silly, but I don't. I'll never deposit there now that I know this. I fully understand that it makes no difference as far as fairness, but it's still flawed in my opinion. It's not like a "real" deck being used if the cards continue to shuffle. I think I'll try this at my next home game and see how everyone reacts.

I don't think it's "silly" ... it's just a fact of life playing online. Stars is the ONLY site (that I am aware of) that uses a set deck. All other sites use the 'constant shuffle' method.

One minor reason is that software using the constant shuffle demands less in computer system resources.

Since I've played live since '69 (sometimes it feels like 1869

) I would prefer Stars method on ALL sites and may be why I prefer Stars over all other sites. But in reality, "IF" we care to believe that no constant shuffle site would EVER manipulate results of the deal, the 'odds' are the same as to which card/s would be dealt next.

The amount of time it takes to 'click' (as mentioned before) DOES change the entropy input used to influence A next card. Problem is, we're dealing in what is probably nano-seconds. If YOU wait 3 seconds more to click, you aren't influencing YOUR next card, but rather the next card at some other table. It's somewhat complicated, but the delay or speed of clicking at a DIFFERENT table may/will influence YOUR table's next card dealt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

I wouldn't care if you shuffled after every card you dealt or turned over on the board. It's irrelevant. Every card remaining in the deck could be the next card, shuffling does not change that. The only issue with doing it in a home game is the time it takes to do it, online that's not an issue.

From an 'odds' perspective, the method is really irrelevant as WVH suggests. It's just the idea that pulling cards from 'anywhere' in the deck during a deal is acceptable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardplayer52

i heard neither site uses a burn card. try that in your home game too.

No site uses a burn card. Burn cards really would not serve a purpose online. Burns are used to eliminate card reading the marked face of a card next to be dealt. (limits/deters one form of cheating at live tables).

If preset decks are a concern, then by all means, stick to playing exclusively at Pokerstars, or any site that presets the entire deck. If you find one, let me know ....

I don't ever play much at Ultimatebet, but when they switched to Cerius software, they announced that a 'rabbit' feature would be available. What IS a joke is how sites treat online poker players as being ignorant. Cerius uses a constant shuffle, therefore a rabbit feature would produce a false result. We still see players being results oriented, NOT understanding that their 'next' card or seeing the 'quads they missed' would never have happened. They still chat "I had a feeling that I shouldn't have folded".

See you at Stars, Casper ... or Saturday night while we are all out trick or treating ...

(j/k ... I do prefer Stars because it IS a preset deck)

Hard to teach old dogs new tricks ...

#21 28th October 2009, 7:16 PM

BTW Casper. If you are truly interested in RNG's... Google the various elements of online poker software. RNG's, entropy, algorithms, software, etc. What you asked about in your OP was about RNG's. The actual 'shuffle process' used is not about RNG's at all ... it's about the software and the user's algorithm in HOW it asks the RNG to produce a 'random number' for the software to produce that mythical NEXT card ...

It's really worth the reading if you want to understand a process that seems to bother you online.

#22 28th October 2009, 7:56 PM

I would rather think of all sites as random instead of a locked deck even if they're not.

It helped me to get over tossing my small PP's to a 4 bet and flopping a set or quads. Now that I "know" its random, it's easier to realize I have made the right play.

This was the only way I personally could stop playing "results orientated" poker. Now when I fold my weaker starting hands to heavy action, it doesn't bug me in the least bit when I "woulda" flopped the nuts.

#23 30th October 2009, 1:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nevadanick

Here is the link to the description for the Stars shuffle. It describes their process for setting the entire deck before the deal starts.
http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/features/security/

Below is a copy of an e-mail I received from the Stars tech department last year when I asked the same question directly (with a portion deleted that related to a second question). It confirms that the Stars deck is fully set and locked during the play of that hand.
-------------------------
Hello xxxxxx,

Thanks for your email and for your intriguing questions. I will do my
best to address them completely.

First of all, as in a real life casino, the cards are shuffled, the deck
is set and the hands are dealt. If a player folds the next player will
get the card that WAS coming. It does not change.

<snipped>

Regards,

Patrick K.
PokerStars Support Team
------------------------------------

I don't think it's "silly" ... it's just a fact of life playing online. Stars is the ONLY site (that I am aware of) that uses a set deck. All other sites use the 'constant shuffle' method.

One minor reason is that software using the constant shuffle demands less in computer system resources.

Since I've played live since '69 (sometimes it feels like 1869

) I would prefer Stars method on ALL sites and may be why I prefer Stars over all other sites. But in reality, "IF" we care to believe that no constant shuffle site would EVER manipulate results of the deal, the 'odds' are the same as to which card/s would be dealt next.

The amount of time it takes to 'click' (as mentioned before) DOES change the entropy input used to influence A next card. Problem is, we're dealing in what is probably nano-seconds. If YOU wait 3 seconds more to click, you aren't influencing YOUR next card, but rather the next card at some other table. It's somewhat complicated, but the delay or speed of clicking at a DIFFERENT table may/will influence YOUR table's next card dealt.

From an 'odds' perspective, the method is really irrelevant as WVH suggests. It's just the idea that pulling cards from 'anywhere' in the deck during a deal is acceptable.

No site uses a burn card. Burn cards really would not serve a purpose online. Burns are used to eliminate card reading the marked face of a card next to be dealt. (limits/deters one form of cheating at live tables).

If preset decks are a concern, then by all means, stick to playing exclusively at Pokerstars, or any site that presets the entire deck. If you find one, let me know ....

I don't ever play much at Ultimatebet, but when they switched to Cerius software, they announced that a 'rabbit' feature would be available. What IS a joke is how sites treat online poker players as being ignorant. Cerius uses a constant shuffle, therefore a rabbit feature would produce a false result. We still see players being results oriented, NOT understanding that their 'next' card or seeing the 'quads they missed' would never have happened. They still chat "I had a feeling that I shouldn't have folded".

See you at Stars, Casper ... or Saturday night while we are all out trick or treating ...

(j/k ... I do prefer Stars because it IS a preset deck)

Hard to teach old dogs new tricks ...

Thanks for the post. I had no idea that Stars was the only site using what I would consider a "real" deck. The posts I read regarding Full Tilt was the only time I've seen a continuous shuffle mentioned. I'm a little shocked right now. I guess I am going to narrow my playing to only Stars.

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