POT/HAND ODDS HELP

I'll guarantee ya ... 9 out of 10 players here don't understand a thing that was said, don't use pot odds when playing, don't use hand odds when playing, and probably won't ever understand this thread fully ... me included. So it now becomes at discussion between 2 or 3 people.

I suggest anyone wanting to understand all this get some books like Jesus. Then read and re-read.

I'm not sure what it is that Jesus is reading, but I'm done discussing the matter.

How can you play poker and expect to be a consistant winner if you don't understand and use pot and implied odds? The rule of four is a way to evaluate your hand which is but one of the two variables in the equation to determine correct pot odds.

lol, i haven´t read a poker book in my whole life. Just some tips (i try to study, understand and apply them, not just reading them) and lot of practice. And of course as you can see i like very much math stuff.
I know this has become a discussion between 2 or 3 people, so like dogs i´m going to stop posting here.

As i said, i haven´t read a book.

"but I´m done discussing the matter"? that means i won the discussion! Yeah! You surrendered first! I finally got a piece of you!!! LOL

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.. ...diablo, now you? Did you read all my post?
For third time, the definition of pot odds is: "a ratio of the amount of money in the pot compared with how much money it takes to call"
According to that definition, pot odds variables are:

1) Pot size
2) Bet size

For example, is there is a bet of $20 into a $60 pot, the pot odds are:
80 ($60 + $20):20 = 4:1.
No hand odds there. No chances of winning the pot. Just a bet to call into a determined pot.

The rule of 4 is one variable in the equation to determine correct "EXPECTATION" . The other variable is pot odds. And also there are implied odds, but for the moment let´s keep them out.

Everybody is happy now? (if you have some question please make it, but first try to read the previous posts)

Look man, when someone refers to pot odds, they are refering to the ratio of the bet to the size of the pot compared to the number of possible outs in the deck as a ratio. The size of the bet/the size of the pot is simply a number when standing alone, but combined with the ratio of your outs/cards remaining gives you your answer as to wether or not calling has a positive expectation or not.

According to my knowledge, pot odds are what i said. Just a number when standing alone. You have to compare it with the hand odds to know the expectation.
If you see the first posts i made on this thread i used the term "pot odds" like you now, but then xdmanx correct me saying that i was wrong, that pot odds were just in relation to the money of the pot. I searched for some information in relation to pot odds and almost everywhere it said the definition that xdmanx gave.
So if i´m wrong it´s xdmanx´s fault, and if i´m right i´m the best! LOL

Anyway, if we analize this deeply, our "fight" has no sense. We´re discussing about definitions and terms, but what it really matters is that we can understand the ideas, and i guess we both did. The correct terms are important if everyone want to understand the same, but since this is a discussion between 2 o 3, i think it doesn´t matter.

PokerStars: Sorry Sammy for complicating your thread to this point. I will try to send you a private message with the basics of the odds.

I also have heard from pros that pot odds is the relation between the money to invest into a pot and your chances of winning. As i said, xdmanx told me the other thing and i also saw the same information in some sites, but it really doesn´t matter. I join you and fourdogs, i´m also done.

Its a symantical argument at this point. When pros refer to having correct pot odds to call, they are also considering their outs as well. How could the ratio of bet to pot size let you know wether or not to call without factoring in the number of outs you have? Anyway, like four dogs, I'm done.

Pot odds is the amount of money compared to the amount needed to call. Like I said alot of people use the term pot odds incorrectly. They properly apply expectation but they call it pot odds! Implied odds/pot odds compared to the odds of hitting your hand(outs over unseen cards) equals expectation. The end result isn't pot odds the end result is expectation. Pot odds is a variable in an equation. Expectation is the answer

Hi All - I am reading a very good poker book and it says that you RARELY use pot odds in No Limit Poker - so is this discussion moot?

I guess if you are playing LIMIT then proceed.

LOL talk about opening up another can of worms! Very true you just need an aproximate number in NL. But seeing as how I recommend to any poker player that they learn LIMIT first! I feel proper understanding of odds and expectation is critical to becoming a good player

Thank You Professor! ROTFLMAO

That would be cool, and yes it is a little complicated but I THINK I'm getting it.

Yeah yeah.... The old saying those who can do... those that can't teach probably applies here

Those who can, do - those who can't, teach !! Gotcha!! LOL

XD, I agree. And was incorrect in how I worded my replies. However, it is so widely used in the incorrect manner in which I explained it, that it has basically taken on that meaning. How many times do they use expectation in the right place when someone at a final table goes into the tank? Commentators and announcers say something to the effect that they are calculating their pot or implied odds, not figuring their expectation. You are correct, but you would know what I meant instantly if I said to you, "I called because I was getting the right odds."

Yup I sure would! As someone witha title I don't have that luxury though

Understood Jesus,

I tried not to make that a loaded question but it came out that way. It was only supposed to be hypothetical.

The 35% down to the river is of course on the flop. However the 2:1 was supposed to be pre-flop. Someone calls all-in per example of 1000 and that is all the chips they have and you call all-in with your 1000 cause that is all you have. The call is now 2:1 for the flush draw. Actually less than that, however with say the A(X) suited. You have #1 a 30% that an Ace comes on the flop, takes away from the flush draw question.

As for 35% that is roughly 3.5:1 or 1:3.5 sorry got it backwards.. so it should be 1:2.. my mistake.

Wow, Ok I gotta chime in. The "rule of 4" is a quick calculation with 2 cards to come. It does not consider that there may be two bets to call, or more. You must adjust the rule of 4 against reverse odds. Or the amount you will have to call on both streets. There for the rule of 4 is accurate if you are calculating whether to call an All-in bet on the flop, because if you or them are all in ther is no more betting on future streets. However, if neither of you are all-in, you will have to call a bet if you miss your card on the turn. It also has a tough time including "d-outs" But in a clutch it gives you a quick idea of where you are at.
If you are on a flush draw, and getting just the right odds, to call using the rule of 4, remeber to also calculate what it will cost if you miss your card on the turn. This can sometimes turn a call into a fold. In limit holdem the street is more expensive, sometimes you will find you can call the flop bet, but not the turn bet. This can turn the rule of 4 negative on you.

Bill

Damn, what ever happened to instincts? I'm an accountant and I play poker for fun. If you ever see me carry a calculator to the table - shoot me quick. Not to say that I don't give this an analytical look, I just don't go through the quadratic equations to get there. Example, I have a 4 flush after the flop:

If the call is reasonable, I'll call, if not I'll fold. Now if I could only define reasonable...

Actually, this very situation is currently taking place at www.pokerprosvsearth.com
We have a 2c,4c with a flop of 2d,Qc,5c. Very interesting. Mark has bet $500 into a $750 pot. I have voted to call. If we miss on the turn, we may have to dump the hand. Remember this is a study in heads up play, this hand is not even playable at a full table. This situation does show, that in the "rule of 4" you must consider future betting rounds.

I would actually raise.. $750 in the pot.. 500 to call would put me at $1250 basically a little over 2:1 to call. We are at least putting him QX or Paint cards. So raising it another $500 would make the call almost worth it but yet the Pot odds wouldn't make it worth it to call so a fold would be in obmission here. Because #1 If he had pair the Queen, we have to raise at least for proper odds. What would happen though if he is on a stronger flush draw then we are??? A pair of 2's we also have making it the lowest pair on the board.

Simple fold cause you have enough chips not to worry about folding here. Live another hand to fight.

I see your point. Combining the possibility that he is on a better flush, a fold is appropriate. I don't see him betting a flush for $500. That's why I like the call.

They are beating me up over there.
You have to admit though, that it exactly demonstrates what this thread is all about. It's like you said, facing a bet on the turn may weigh the argument for folding. I still say it is a defensive bet. Mark wants to take this pot down right now. I still vote for a call. Plus there is implied odds, we can take the worst of it if we can get him to call a decent bet if we hit the flush. Of course, his bet is trying to find out if we are on a flush draw.

Bill

Bill

Now the turn came I noticed. This would be tough cause there was a call on the flop. I would still have him on QX meaning that he has high 2 pair and the possibility of the higher flush. One could check-raise here for a bluff making it seem you got 3 5's. That is probably what I would do. Yet what if he doesn't bet and checks along with you??
Not impossible for him to do but wouldn't make much sense accept to get a free card for him. I'd still go with the check-raise and make him think what I may have.

I'd

I voted for a a bet of 75% of the pot. It gives us 2 ways to win. They are slamming me over there. I like the check raise, actually a few guys that I respect over there are writing about it. Did you vote to check?

Bill

Not that time I didn't vote. I did however just voted to raise the bet of 1500 to 3000. It is early meaning the blinds are low and losing half my stack of chips wouldn't hurt to much. Yet it does mean I would have to tighten up a bit more. Yet of course it is heads up. I definatly wouldn't put him on 3 5's though. I would certainly have him on the QX and/or higher flush draw.

However again since the blinds are low, one can fold to fight another hand. Chips would be even on a fold. Why bother to win big right now on a very marginal hand that can be beat.