POT/HAND ODDS HELP

Ok Ive been playing poker for about 8 months now. I am still a beginner. I play mostly on line. I do pretty well on most of my sessions and tournaments. I never use pot or hand odds. I need some help with this. I've read some books on it. I'm not sure I understand all the strategy behind it. Should I make up a chart or try to memorize the card odds? Is there any where I can get a copy of a chart on line? Whats the best way to practice it? Do you use it in just tournaments or ring games also? I think my game will improve if I can use this.

There is no chart really. Although I am sure you can find one that preflop odds on starting hands. Very simply odds are how you determine when you should call fold or raise. Determing pot odds is actually very simple. Ration of money in the pot to the amount of money it takes to make your next move/bet. Example $10 in the pot $1 to call 10:1 pot odds. Next you determine the number of "outs" you believe you have left in the deck to make the best hand out of the unseen cards, not the best possible hand the best hand of the players in the game. For instance on turn there are 6 seen cards 4 on the board and 2 in your hand so 46 unseen cards. outs/46 compared to pot odds determines your move. If the pot odds are higher or equal to the odds of hitting your hand you continue on other wise you fold. Hope that helps.......

Here's a ready reckoner for comparing outs to pot odds. Not quite as accurate as xdmanx's flawless exposition, but easier on the brain:

First, estimate percentage of pot you need to pay to call. Example: $9 in pot, $1 to call, your $1 call is 10% of the total pot.

Then, count your outs and double it. This is your percentage chance of making your hand on the next card.

Compare the two. If your chances of winning are bigger than the money you are putting in the pot to call, then you call. Otherwise you fold.

Here's an example hand from limit hold'em:

A64 all diamonds on board, you have the King of diamonds and 9 of clubs. (I guess you must have been in the blind!) You have 9 outs, because any of the 9 diamonds left will give you the nut flush, about an 18% chance.

18% is better than 10% so you have an easy call on the turn.

Suppose the turn is a blank. Now there's $13 in the pot and it will cost you $2 for you to see the river. Without a calculator, that's still less than 15%.

I've still got my 9 outs, so my chances of winning are still about 18%. So I call again. I'm not going to get rich quick with this small edge, but casinos are built on smaller margins.

The best thing of all is, people will mutter about "chasing" and "lucky" when the D hits on the river

That's pot odds.

P.s. if you reckon you are going to win extra bets if you make your hand but fold if you don't, you can have fun estimating "implied odds", but that's one for another day!

So if I have 4 hearts after the flop and nothing else and I believe my opponet has top pair. My odds are 52-5=47 47/9(hearts left)=5.2 So 5.2 to 1 or 5 to 1 so with your 10 to 1 example I'm calling every time. But if there is $4 in the pot and it costs me $1 to call, do I fold that every time? With 2 cards to come do I use these odds litterally every time. Like in this example where I need 5-1 to call but it is just 4-1.


THANKS FOR YOUR HELP GUYS!!!!!!

Crumble, that method does get you close to the exact pot odds and is a good way to do an "on the fly" assesment and is an interesting way to look at pot odds. Great for beginners still trying to master the game. It doesn't confuse them with numbers while they're trying to decide if their hand is still live. Good post.

Like anything, the more you use it the less mysterious it becomes. I use pot odds most frequently when I'm setting them for an opponent. Most people simply overbet the pot to keep an opponent off a draw, ,n effect, chickening out. They drive out the opposition instead of enticing them to make another, unproffitable bet. You don't have time in a game to whip out the calculator each hand, so there are some tricks that you must commit to memory.
CALLING A BET AFTER THE FLOP OUTS CHANCE OF FILLING
Gut Shot or inside straight draw 4 16.5% or 1:5 +/-
Open Ended Straight 8 31.5% or 2:1 +/-
Flush 9 35% or 2:1 +/-
Straight Flush Draw 15 54.1% or 1:1 +/-

THE RULE OF 4, Another Trick.
For quick approximate determination of all other scenerios take the number of outs you have with 2 cards to come and multiply that number by 4 to get your percentage chance of filling your draw. The results are surprisingly accurate. They do start to drift a bit after 10 outs.
example 3 outs x 4 = 12% or 7:1 the actual percentage is 12.5%
7 outs x 4 = 28% or 2 1/2:1 the actual percentage is 27.8%
This also works well with 1 card to come, but then you must multiply your outs by 2 instead of 4.

One final trick.
When your fixing the odds for an opponent.
A bet of 1/2 the pot gives your opponent 1 1/2:1 odds
A bet of the entire pot gives your opponent 2:1 odds
A bet of 1/3 the pot gives your opponent 4:1 pot odds
A bet of 2/3 the pot gives your opponent 2-1/2:1 odds
A bet of 3/4 the pot gives your opponent 2-1/3:1 odds
A bet of 3/4 the pot gives your opponent 2-1/3:1 odds
A bet of 1/4 the pot gives your opponent 5:1 odds
Don't bother trying to cut it too close when fixing the odds. Just remember, gamblers are opptimistic and are more inclined to call with marginally unfavorable odds than to fold. And Please, no bad beat stories when then the draw out on you.

Thats some good stuff there Four Dogs. I'm gonna start using it and maybe I'll catch on. The fixing odds for an opponent trick is a great Idea. I'll try and use this one too. 20 seconds is how long I have to act so it will be hard to impliment this all at once. As far as bad beats go. Do'nt worry about me complaining about em. I can't stand reading about em so I don't write about em. Thanks dogs. You Rock.

To make a profit the pot odds have to be > then the your out odds.

Twizzy is correct. If you know how to calculate pot odds but don't know what to do with your result - what good is knowing how to calculate them.

And as far as "never" use the rule of 4 - that goes against any pros info I've ever read. You use the rule of 4 on the turn and the rule of 2 on the river - or so I've read.

And yes, there are charts online... just search "pot odds chart" on google or ?? and you'll find some to print out or look at.

Sorry Jesus, I didn't invent the rule of 4. It is a formula that works quite well with 2 cards to come. It WILL give you a very good idea of your chances of picking up your out card after the flop. Not on the next card. The Rule of 4 is for Poker, not coins. Here's the math. Lets say your on an open ended straight draw. There are 8 cards left in the deck that can help you. Outs. On the next card, the Turn, you have an 8/47 chance of a pickup = 17% or .1702. You have an 83% chance of missing or .8298. This is the important number. Assuming You do miss, your chance of the pick-up on the river is now slightly greater. .1739. But once again, we work with the chance of missing, not hitting which is .8261.
So .8298x.8261=.6855 is the chance of not filling your outs with 2 cards to come. 1-.6855=.3145 is your chance of catching your dream card. Thats about 31%. Remember the rule of 4? Number of outs 8, multiplied by the magic number 4 = 32%. Pretty darn close.
But that's not the end of the story. There's another step which for the sake of brevity, and because it seemed to obvious to bother with. Lets look at our straight draw again, assuming you don't question my math. You have a 31% chance of filling the out after the flop, by the numbers. A 32% chance using the rule of 4. For the sake of ease, lets just call it 33%. That means there's a 66% of missing right? 2:1. Pot Odds. Done! Unless your trapping with a flush, you don't want to give your opponent better odds than that to call. A bet of slightly larger than the pot will play on his optimism while, in the long run, turning you a profit.
Here's where you made your mistake with your funny coin. In your analogy you added your 2 chances thus arriving at a 100% chance of getting heads. It's bad math. Pot or coin odds are calculated by multiplying one chance against the next not adding them. Your coin has a 75% chance of turning heads with 2 tries.
ANYONE ELSE WANT A PIECE OF ME!

Ooo, ooo....me, me.

We know you want a piece of him diablo. When is the "Match" by the way. I will watch if I am free. Hope you and your family are doing O.K. down there, been thinkin about you, be safe!

I wonder how many people here look at the post above and just assume Jesus is correct because it's so long and has got a lot of numbers in it? Since I haven't seen anyone else chime in it looks like I'm going to have to battle this one out alone. But that's OK, I'm a gamer. I can see now I'm going to have to give you the Diabloblanco treatment. Give me a day to give this the attention it deserves. THEN I WILL CHEW YOU UP AND SPIT OUT THE PIECES!
Don't worry Diablo, I still hate you too.

Don't worry I have more than 2cents 2 put in! Of course I will be doing so shortly. Be warned though there are just as many opinions on pot odds as there are Chinese. I see alot of terminology errors in this thread. Might take a minute to sort...........

Great XD, you can handle the editing.

OK Since this thread has the potential to be very active I will post proper definitions of the terminology that will most likely be used so that we cut down on confusion.
Pot Odds: The ratio of the current size of the pot to the bet you must call. Considered critical in determining the correct move. The number you come up with strictly concerns the money or bets in the pot!
Implied Odds: Pot odds adjusted for future betting. Somewhat speculative because you must predict what will happen in future betting rounds.
Outs: The number of unseen cards that improve an inferior hand to a winning hand. This is what you compare to pot odds to determine the proper mathmatical play.
Now Michele made a critical point these numbers mean absolutely nothing if you do not properly apply them to the game. I personally don't take the numbers to the percentage stage I leave em in raw odds form to compare them. If you are more comfortable with percentages they work as well, simply a different way of expressing the same concept. I'll actively monitor this thread to try and keep it on track. Remember words are extremely important so try and make sure you have the correct terms. Please ask if you want or need a definition I left out!

OK Here is an attempt to clear things up a little. I will simplify this as much as I can. First Jesus good job on trying to think it through. Now what you call "total odds" of hitting your hand on the turn and river is VERY useful after the flop not useless. The rule of 4 to calculate your percent chance to hit your draw on both the turn and river is an aproximate value which gets you close which is really all that is needed unless you are playing limit poker against expert level competition. Having said that if you can knock out the math in your head for each card then you should do so. Don't confuse pot odds with expectation. Expectation is what you come up with when you compare your pot odds to the odds of hitting the best hand, for our purposes expectation is simply positive or negative or; go or fold. If you are getting better odds from the pot; than the odds of hitting your hand your expectation is positive so you should continue. I think you are on the right track but you really need to get the terms correct. Now technically you are correct when you say it is impossible to calculate your true expectation after the flop because you don't know for sure what kind of betting will take place in the future that is why you should estimate future bets and factor them into your pot odds, at that point your pot odds become implied odds. When done correctly implied odds give you a much more accurate value in determining wether ot not to contine. Quite often implied odds will change the decisions you should make during the hand, from what pot odds tell you to do. SHEW! Hope that helps.

Well, I started this thread cause I wanted to get some help figuring out how to impliment the card and pot odds. Remember I'm a beginner and now with all these posts I'm getting kinda confused? So I gues the rule of 4 with 2 cards to come and the rule of 2 with 1 card. Right? perhaps u can clarify 1 time xd.

NICE XD! I could't have said it any better, and didn't. I'm going to review the thread and see if it's worth it to comment further.

Jeebus christ, this is another AA consecutively thread in the making.

P.S. I hate you too fourdogs

Sammy, I think what Jesus is trying to say is that, as the Rule of 4 is usefull in determining your pot odds with 2 cards to come, it is in effect useless in all practicality because you should only be concerned with your odds of hitting the next card. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call it useless, but technically he's correct. Its variation, the Rule of 2, is equally convenient for that purpose. But lets not dismiss the big brother. There are several common situations where you need to figure your pot odds with 2 cards to come. Here are some examples.
1) The most obvious application is the forced All-In. Are the pot odds favorable? Remember, once you call, your opponent can't make you bet again. 2) This is my favorite! When the 1st bet will leave you short stacked, it is often the case that when you miss your draw, your opponent will no longer be able to raise enough to make a final call unproffitable. You may in fact get far better odds than you need to see the river. This should be taken into account on your previous bet. Unless your playing with Chris Ferguson it's unlikely that your opponent considered this. 3) Your Implied Pot Odds, a more abstract concept which XDMANX touched upon, justify the 2 combined bets. Implied odds are tough to figure. There's no cute math trick for this. It's really more of a confidence level that, when you draw out, the future size of the pot will justify your first 2 bets. In short, when you hit, your gonna rake it in! How the heck are you supposed to know that? Good 'ol poker instincts, my greatest failing.

i understand what jesus is on about
-basically the rule of 4 gives the odds of hitting your hand by the river when calculated post-flop
if you're trying to figure out your pot odds and your odds of hitting your hand after the flop,
for your odds of hitting you're hand in this situation, you can't use the rule of 4 because it doesn't assume that your opponent will bet next hand, and at such a time you will have to recalculate you're odds of hitting again
but if you're using the rule of 4 after the turn, you're only calculating for 1 more card, and don't have to worry about a bet after that since it's the last

that's my take on it at least

oops
didn't see that post
LOL ignore my last one then!

ok rule of 4 has nothing to do with the pot it strictly gives you an idea of your chances of hitting your hand. Pot odds strictly deal with the money in the pot not the cards in your hand. Compare the 2 factors(or outs to pot odds) and you get expectation, what result you expect from the hand, which alot of you are confusing with pot odds! Now if you can figure the odds of your draw falling on both cards how is that less useful than doing it for 1 card to come? Key point though is terminology cause looks like for the most part everybody has a decent understanding the terms especially pot odds just seem to be getting interchanged too much.

What it really comes down to is - weighing the relationship of your pot odds to the odds of making your hand - and go from there and make your decision to play.

Check out the charts available and you will understand it a little better.

And if you take all the time to figure out your pot odd, implied odds, turn card odds, river card odds, what should I do?? LOL, I'm sure your fellow players will be on your case to just -- PLAY!!!!

They can get on my case as much as they want if they wanna bitch about somebody taking their allowed time to make a decision then they need to go back to playing play money chips. Like I said it isn't critical to get the number precise but you better be able to get them close if you ever want to be a successful poker player.

A real easy way to calculate hand odds is:

Take your outs X 4 for the turn and add 1
Take your outs X 2 for the river and add 1

You will get VERY close to the correct odds, maybe a couple 10th off.

absolutely no need tp apologise Glad to try and help. Especially players who want to learn! My pleasure

Most simpliest of odds to remember for those who don't like math.

Flush draw.. 35% of making it drawn down to the river after the flop.

Yet lets say before the flop you have AX suited and someone calls all-in. Would it be justifiable to make the call because pot odds are now 2:1?

"nut flush draw for simplicity".

I know king,queen, jack, 10 could make for the straight draw.. Just keeping it simple I hope, just aiming for a strong flush draw.

OK, I'm not sure who you were directing this comment to, maybe both of us. The Rule of 4 has nothing to do with Pot Odds? PO's are by definition, the relationship between the money in the pot and your chance of winning it.It is not possible to determine your Pot Odds without first determining your chance of winning. Is everyone in agreement? I don't recall stating that The Rule of 4 would by itself give you your Pot Odds. It is merely a very simple method of determining one of the 2 variables in the equation.