Pokerstars NL Bots Identified

From : http://www.pokertableratings.com/blo...n-poker-stars/

Read the rest of the evidence at the PTR link I posted above.

I hate PTR for many reasons but they are in a unique position to be able to confirm suspicions in cases like this.

Oh yeah and before the rigtards start, the fact that this was discovered by random players should show you that if it were rigged it would be easily found out.

No hate for ss's? Perfect opportunity.

That's actually a pretty good point, they are all POS Short Stackers, so it's not like this is proof of nl bots beating the game, more like exploiting the system like all POS SS do.

I really don't understand why pokerstars and ftp's security doesn't pick up on this sort of thing. It's usually a suspicious person with the aid of a tracking site like PTR that pick up on it. :/

I could care less if the tables were filled with bots... easy money if u ask me

Their stats are almost identical across the board(VPIP etc) Not very subtle are they. Wonder if Bob Smith worked for PokerStars as well?

Lol.

the poker sites dont care about bots....they love them! look at the rake $ thoses 10 players generated. the sites talk that crap about they can find them and shut them down....but they want that rake....thats all they care about. ive had many emails with ps and ft....they talk the talk, but they do NOTHING!..they do not care about you or me and thats it...i quit talking to them and make lots of notes so i know how to play against them.
any site that lets you play at 24 tables of cash games and more tourneys is bot heaven...thats the way they want it!

lol at Stars response in the 2p2 thread:

PokerStars would like to update you on the status of this case, and correct several misconceptions that have been perpetuated throughout this thread.

First, as of the afternoon of July 17, we have indeed removed ten players from the site for violations of our terms of service. We cannot give additional details about which accounts, or the specific reasons for their removal.

Second, we would like to clarify something that the OP has left out of this entire discussion, which is that there were two separate investigations here. PokerStars absolutely did *not* exonerate these players from being bots at any time. We conducted a review of the three users listed in the OP for collusion, and it was negative, and this was reported to the OP, who posted an incorrect “PokerStars said ‘All Clear’” here. A review of the players for being bots was concurrently being conducted, and was in progress until today, July 17th. The OP was notified of this concurrent bot review being in progress, and did not inform this thread of that fact.

We would like to address the fact that the play continued throughout the night of July 16th, after a third party poker source posted an independent review identified 7 additional players. PokerStars had also identified 7 additional players very early in our investigation -- prior to the third party poker site's identification of them. We were conducting a very in depth search to locate other potential accounts, to ensure we had located all of the accounts prior to closing them down concurrently. Shutting down only part of a ring in mid-investigation can spook additional, undiscovered accounts into cashing out prior to locating them. As of this afternoon, July 17, that review concluded that the ten accounts were the complete extent of the matter.

Next, please note that third party poker sites did not locate this ring unassisted. They had a baseline of three identical player profiles from which to start, which is a far more trivial task than saying "here's a collection of 4 million players... now, find me 3 who are identical.... without a baseline from which to search." One is a linear search (searching for a particular pattern) and the other is exponentially more difficult based upon the number of players. PokerStars located the rest of the ring faster than did the third party poker site.

MicroBob wrote:

Quote:
Stars, with however many staff they have who are specifically paid to find this stuff, were unable to detect it after being told by people on here to look for it. It's not even a matter of them just not having checked on them or it just slipped past them. They were actually actively looking directly at these players and investigating them and still couldn't see it.
This is a misconception perpetuated in this thread by incomplete information. Please see above regarding the timeline of this investigation.

Finally, to address why these players played for a relatively extended period without detection, we can say that upon conclusion of this review that the bots were fairly sophisticated in certain aspects, including their human behavior modeling and their stealth capabilities. Our tools for bot detection are sophisticated, but they are not perfect. No site can guarantee you that they are completely free of bots. What PokerStars can and does pledge is that we use our extensive tools behind the scenes to detect bots as best we can... and they are very effective. We detect and remove most bots well before they even leave the development stage, and well before they could play long enough to come to the attention of players or third party poker databases the way these players did.

PokerStars takes its commitment to bot detection and removal extremely seriously, and will continue to do so, both behind the scenes with our tools (which are under constant review and improvement), and in response to player-generated suspicions. Most player reports of bot suspicions are false alarms, but we still investigate each one thoroughly, and when they actually do locate a previously undetected bot, appropriate action will always be taken.

Best Regards,

Jeff
PokerStars Game Security

Sounds like they're whole post is just "We knew it before PTR! Honest." That's nice Stars, so why did it take you until after PTR announced it to close the accounts???

There will always be bots playing shortstacks in deep games. There will always be collision taking place in DoN games. The solution to these issues is not to develop better ways to find those cheaters. The solution is to remove those game types completely. Make the min buy in for cash games deep enough that bots can't beat them, stop running dons. Anything else is just marketing from the poker room, not a real solution.

In that respect, FTP >>>>>> PS

So will all the CC members that trashed UB and stopped playing there now do the same to PS?

Completely different issue. In the ub scandal, the cheater was a ub employee. An inside job. Is much much worse than outside cheaters.

i feel like the game is full of bots, on pokerstars where i play @ 10nl there is always a plenty of guys just shoving with 2$, they have no post flop play in them.

these one got caught because they ware playing pretty high stakes, at 10nl, 5nl and 2nl nobody will bother with them.

Did they identify the bots at PS as Not setup by PS?

No, they identified half of them as Al Qaida bots trying to collect money for their jihad, and the other half as CIA counter-bots trying to cut down on the Al Qaida bots' profits while collecting some cash to finance illegal torture camps in Yemen.

Seriously, man, wtf is wrong with you?

my fav post throughout these forums lol

This question makes zero sense. How can you compare the 2 things at all?

This made me laugh - I'm glad there aren't any terrorist bots on Full Tilt.

lmao what

stars has really gone downhill since lee left.

i mean they're still leagues ahead of FT and their assorted incompetence imo, but it's sad to see that they just don't seem to care as much as they used to.

Full Tilt is reserverd for the Palestinians and the Isrealis.

It's ok. I honestly don't the big laugh is on me. I never seem to get a response when I point out that there is absolutely no reason in the world why these sites wouldnt have people playing on their behalf and even have bots. In Atlantic City there are people that play for the house. Does anyone think this is a new concept? Why not online when we know it happens in live games.

Anyway WTF is wrong with me? I guess I just don't trust casinos as much as other people do.

Kinda of harsh responses from regulars here too considering I am not new here.

Funny thing too is through all of the sarcasm the answer was really not given was it?

People playing for the site or for themselves would make no difference whatsoever. A lot of people are staked by others and it doesn't change anything.

Bots playing for the site would be ridiculously short term thinking from the sites. Bots do have the potential to kill online poker in the long run, pretty much like it killed online backgammon or online chess. The sites know that. They are not going to contribute to the curse that will one day kill their business, or should I say milk cow.

Thanks....that is actually is much more reasonable response.

I agree that the sites have a lot to lose if they are caught using bots against their players. I just dont rule it out completely.

I just dont think sites would set up bots. Not cause a casino owner is so moral, but, as belgo said, it is bad for business in the long run, and if it somehow came out, it would be VERY bad for business. Enough people use bots that the sites profit from rakewise, that I dont think they need to contribute themselves. And if they did, wouldnt that be a no win situation? I mean, if PS paid to have bots set up, then they are collecting rake off their own money. I wish they would be more diligent in discovering and removing however. It seems that sites like PTR or players themselves do more checking up......

Inside or outside job aside, these are both serious security issues that put the integrity of the poker rooms in jeopardy. All of them. This is just one more reason for open and transparent regulation, taxation and legalization of poker in the USA and everywhere else possible.

Not to trivialize HE, but SS bots (or people) playing shove or fold can beat the game by eliminating post flop play... that's what bots seem to do most...

Now me, I play PLO, PLO8, and stud variants. Seems to me these forms are safe from bots because a) preflop shoves are not profitable or possible in these games and b) these games are decided on later streets, which would involve huge calculations on a bots part, including reading opponents...

Does anyone here think bots will eventually invade these games also?? Myself, I think not...

how do you know if u are playing a bot. I mean a lot of people multi table

As a nl 25c 50c full ring regular in 2010 to get gold star status each month this year I remember playing with craizer and most likely played with the others. Will pokerstars pay me anything for possibly losing pots to these bots? Can bots be programmed to do any chat? If not, this is one way to know you are playing either a bot or someone who has all their tables so tiny the chat scrolls too fast to see any chat.

Twice before with FullTilt I have received notices that I had been involved with cheaters or colluders and have been refunded a few bucks. Will Pokerstars do something similar?

I am in no way an expert in these matters, but I would think a bot would be playing the same way every time, whereas a multi tabler would be varying play according to stats.

Seems like everyday now there is someone catching cheaters, bots, teams, it just smells. All i know i can go to commerce casino in LA and sit down know iam not being cheated. Live is where u can make money, online is a variance nightmare.

gees i am writing pokerstars and request they pay me compensation oh wait I don't play at pokerstars lol darnit..I saw dollar signs for A minute lol...just playin with you all..

does anyone know what pokerstars did freeze the accounts