Is poker a game

With the exception of the few that actually make their living playing poker, it's a game for the rest of us. Was playing a Maui SNG last night on Noble and I lost on pocket pairs in the first few hands. Hung around won a few hands but was getting a bit short on chips. Hadn't had a hand in about 20 minutes when I got J-T suited (spades) which looked good at the time. Called the big blind and the flop came Q-T-8 with 1 spade. I now had a gutshot straight draw, longshot flush draw, and middle pair. I checked and a player raised about the pot. I was tired of folding, and due for a catch, so I called. Anyway, I tripped tens on the river and beat his queens and eights. The guy started to freak and blame me for everything wrong with poker. He started to quote odds, etc. I ignored him for the most part (other than telling him "I won, you didn't, get over it").

My question is this: Do you folks really sit there with charts and tables to analyze every situation? I have never read a poker book, memorized an odds table or anything like that. I just look at every hand, the situation I'm in, and make what I think is the best play. If I was playing for a living I'd probably be a bit more scientific; however, I play for the enjoyment. When a sport (or a game) becomes work - I'll pass.

Yes, I'd rather win than lose. Yes, I have made deposits at multiple sites so I'm risking my money. Yes, I don't like my pocket aces or kings losing. Yes, I have sucked out on the river. Yes, I've been sucked out by the river. In short, I'm gambling - sometimes I win and sometimes I don't.

If you can't take the game for what it is, a game of chance, and accept the outcomes - I suggest you find another pasttime...

hey Dave,
I too have caught some slack for Catching a card on the river. But I have lost much more on the river than I have won! This is the thing about playing poker. I enjoy it to, but I love the money and the winning. I am not a good player but I want to be some day. I spend countless hours reading and studying the odds for cards and the pot. I sometimes study while I am playing. I figure if I get a small edge over the people just playing for enjoyment it will up my odds for winning. I dont really care to deposit "MY" money on other poker sites I would rather it be someone elses. Like people who just play for fun. Some people make a living playing poker and that is my dream. I dont think I can do it If I just play for fun. I'm always learning!!

Dave, it drives some people absolutely bonkers when they read and study and memorize and practice and buy videos and watch tv tourneys, only to see their (KK)K flopped set lose to a 56(78s)9 river straight. They can't handle that all of their studying and knowledge of the numbers resulted in losing a big pot with a big hand to what they consider to be a bad beat by a clueless idiot.

They suffer from what I call "PHS"..."Phil Helmuth Syndrome". An unshakeable belief that if you just play every hand 'by the book', you should win every hand you play. Delusional, irrational, unrealistic, and just plain silly. Everyone who ever sat at a poker table has played a hand they probably shouldn't have, based on little more than a gut feeling, and won the hand.

So, to all the number-crunchin' crybabies on all the poker sites in all the world...shut up and play!

You hit the nail on the head Rammer, these folks believe they will win every hand they play. I've seen folks whine about "bad beats" when their kings get beat by aces - which is a crock. I only wish it would have been me that knocked this guy out of the tourney but it wasn't. I'll be keeping an eye out for him and look to maybe get him pissed at me again...

the real Q is.

Is poker a SPORT??

Yes

I burned all my poker books and charts after watching Gus Hanson play.

lol.


But gus hanson isnt really that good.

i wish i had the PHS, if that means being a millionare with 9 WSOP titles. lol.
I have to say that players that are extremely tight and just play by winning odds aren´t good players. Bluffing and semi-bluffing are an art that you have to incorpore to your game if you wanna be good. Playing trash hands is an important part of the game, and there you know that you´re the underdog preflop, and then you can steal some pots or you can hit your hand and win a big pot (because no one thinks that those low community cards helped somebody). If you only play monsters hands, then you will be predictable and that´s the worst thing that can happen to you in poker. So if someone lose with his AKs against two pair of 6-3 and then starts yelling: "How did you called with a hand like that! I had more odds preflop!", the only thing you have to do is to ignore him.
In relation to your specific situation, the truth is that you played badly that hand, not because you called preflop with that hand, because pot odds clearly weren´t in your favour (if you thought than only catching a card you would win the hand). I´m saying that if you keep doing plays like that, you will lose more money than you win. But even on that situation the other player´s attittude was wrong. He has to learn that maths are very important on the game, but they don´t won every hand you play according them. Bad beats happens a lot, and when it happens to you the only thing you have to do is to clear your mind and don´t let them to affect your game (going on tilt).
Dave, in relation to your fist question, i have to say that yes, i try to analize every situation, yes, i study and read books, yes, i use maths as a fundamental part of my game, but also yes, i play for the enjoyment. I really enjoy playing poker, but i like studying to improve my game. For me the money is just a fee to have fun. As all the games, when i enjoy the most is when i win, and to that i have to play the best poker i can.
ps: you don´t have to memorize an entire chart of hands odds, just memorize some preflop situation odds and then after the flop and after the turn you can use the rule of 4-2 to calculate the odds in an easy way. The rule consist in that after the flop you have to count your outs and then multiply them by 4 and add a % sign, and after the turn you do the same thing but instead of multiplying by 4, you multiply them by 2 (or 2.2 if you want to be more accurate).
ps2: Is not Gus Hanson, is Gus Hansen (in Denmark "sen" means "son of", so he would be "son of Han").

I have to confess that I didn't buy this simplistic method of calculating outs/odds. So I did some surfing and, sure enuff, it's valid and the result is so close to the "long math" method that it doesn't bear mentioning. It's called the "Shotgun Method". I have pasted the text here from the poker site "Texas Holdem Poker Statistics".

Easy Way to Calculate Outs (Shot Gunning)

Without getting into a lot of math there is an easy and simple way to calculate your outs. This is a ballpark figure that shows you the chances to improve on the flop and turn. After 15 outs the estimate is off target by a lot, but at 15 outs you are the favorite to win anyways so always bet and raise!

With two cards to come after the flop you multiply your number of outs by four for your percent chance to hit your draw. With one card to come after the turn, you multiply your number of outs by two for your percent chance to hit your draw.

Thanks, JL!

I have seen enough bad beats happen to me, and done not as many to know that poker is not and will not always be fair.

I can say I am happy with the majority of my game. I have some holes yet to work on, but who doesn't? I can always respect a person who beats me with a quality hand. Anyone who forces me all-in with AA when they 5,6 (unless I, or they are so short of chips they have to) I will not respect and will say keep playing that way. You won't get far . That's just the way I am. If it makes me a Hellmuth wannabe than so be it.

Rammer, the formula of 4-2 is to calculate "PERCENTAGE ODDS", not "RATIO ODDS". In your first example, if you have 2 outs after the flop, then you have 8% of hitting your hand (and 92% you will lose), you aren´t 8 to 1 underdog. If you want to calculate the ratio odds (if you know the percentage odds), then use this formula: (100/percentage) - 1.

For example: If you have 6 outs after the flop, then your percentage odds is 24% (6 x 4 = 24). So your ratio odds is 3:1 (100/24 = 4 approximately. 4 - 1 = 3).

ps: rammer, it was my imagination or your last post on this thread said that you compared the 4-2 formula with a hand odds chart and the results were completely different?...that´s the reason of why i replied you with this post, but it seems that you edited your post...(i don´t know why it doesn´t says that you edited it....maybe i´m really crazy).
Well, anyway i hope that the rule of 4-2 will help you to calculate the hand odds, and the formula of the ratio odds is very helpfull to know your pot odds.

lederer ure good at math.


also people i read that 71% of your hand is made at the flop

Thanks, but I´m just a chilean school student (here in Chile the level of the education is terrible) and i try to learn as much as i can (specially math).
Well, about the 71% that you are talking, that can be explained with a very simple equation:

7 - 100%
5 - X

7X = 500
X = 500/7
X = 71.42857143%

The 7 is the 100% because you can make your hand with 7 cards (your 2 hole cards and the 5 community cards), so after the flop you have seen 5 cards out of 7 (that´s why the flop is so important, because you can have an idea where you´re standing on the hand, if you are leading or if you´re the underdog).

i am not very good at math.


But i like your point.





But 100% wat are u talking about?? 5/7 cards cannot be 100 percent tho????

I stand corrected. Nice Post Jesus. I use the rule of 4 and 2 regularly to get approximate pot odds. It starts to drift a bit after about 10 outs, still that kind of accuracy is really not necessary. Besides, I think it applies more to ring games than tournament play. Time to download that Absolute software Jesus. Been lookin' for ya at the freerolls.

ohhh.

i thought the ps2 was standing for Playstation 2.

lol...

Maybe I'm just a simple guy, but all the math and calculations take the fun out the game for me. I'm an accountant and spend all day with numbers and I play poker to have some fun. I justify my light hearted approach to the game by never bringing more to the table than I can afford to lose. I'll certainly never be a pro as I'm not that disciplined; however, Moneymaker won one so there's hope for me too. Since I moved to the South years ago (yep, was born a yankee), I've determined that folks up North are wound to tight - same thing I feel for the book and chart carrying players. Unless you're using poker to make a living and pay the mortgage, enjoy the game - don't turn it into a statistical problem.

And yes, I know drawing to a gutshot straight isn't a good move but I couldn't quote the mathematical odds - nor do I care to. I expect that the book/chart poker crowd will figure me an easy mark; however, I've been playing for over 35 years and have won much more than I've lost. At the end of the day you have to trust your instincts as even if there's a 99% chance of something happening - that 1% occurs often enough to be noticed. Anyway, this is all personal opinion and anything can happen when you gamble. I just prefer to keep the game a game...

lol ure irish

Like many of you - I'm no math wizard and have never read a single book on poker. I've read some magazines (short and to the point - books have too many pages! LOL).

I do what Irish Dave does ... analyze each hand and make decisions on how far I'll go with it, how much is in the pot. I do have to catch myself sometimes chasing trips. straights, and flushes after the flop. I best at chasing flushes.

I also know that betting correctly is a HUGE part of the game. I'm working on that one.

No mathmatics for me - took Algebra twice and got a D twice - learned I wasn't best at math at a young age.

Irish Dave - I wouldn't say you are gambling. If you know when to fold and bet - you're doing great. Its those dang people who are in EVERY hand that kill me. There's only one winner a hand and they think its them every time.

I wish they'd just tell us that they're supposed to win every hand, it'd make easier for us to fold on cue...

anyone know if poker is a sport??

besides the yankee fella

Well, if your style works for you and you have fun with it, then there is no point of discussion, because the best thing you can do is to adopt your own style and feel comfort with it. If you have fun and you win money (or even if you don´t win money), then it´s all right.






The 7 cards are the 100%, and 5/7 are the 71%.

i know that "denmark rule" because my name is Stefan Christiansen and i wondered why almost all denmark names ended with "sen"...well, my mom explained me that. In relation to the absolute software, i´m going to download it soon, so i can play a freeroll with you and i will kick your a$$.LOL (just a joke)

oooh

ok. thx lederer

Irish - You can watch them. You can see who goes in every hand like clockwork so you know they don't have a good, playable hand every time. The other thing is that stumps me is they call every dang thing that come to 'em - LOL - with nothing.

The other thing that bothers me is people who re-raise preflop - one increment like from 20 to 40. Then they check when it's their turn - then lose. Poor betting if you ask me. No one is going to fold to another 20 chips. I think they think they are playing limit holdem.

But, they say -- don't teach - let them learn from experience. So I never say a word.

Look I think Moneymaker proved that it is just a game, when he whipped all the so called pros, and professors, etc. The single biggest factor in every tournament I ever played in was luck. You can make all the right reads, and statistical plays you want, but somewhere along the way you have to get lucky.

Like they say .. luck is a part of the game, but you'll never win a tournament with strictly luck. You need to make all the right moves - one mistake can take you out. One mis-step can cripple you fast.

Moneymaker to me is not an acceptional player - he needs many more years of play to become that. I do think he may have baffled many of the pros with his "online play" at a live table. Many young online players do that to the pros but you don't see alot of the young online players win consistently. And to make a living at poker, you need to be a consistent winner. JMO

I don´t agree with you. I know that Moneymaker is an amateur, but he uses stuff like hand odds, pot odds, implied odds, position, stack size, recognizing players styles, their tells, etc. Maybe not like a pro, but i think he uses that stuff at the moment to make a decision.
I know that to win a tourney you need luck, but if you make the right reads and play a solid poker, you will finish in the top places (or in the money) too often. That makes a pro: playing a solid and consistant poker so you can finish at the top places and make a living with the game.
For example, you can quote Moneymaker and Raymer as the example of the opposite, but i can tell you for example that in that 2 WSOP Main Event Dan Harrington placed 4th and 3rd. Or in the last year´s WSOP Lederer made 7 final tables. Also Negreanu played a solid poker along the Series. I can tell you the examples of Phil Hellmuth, Johny Chan and Doyle Brunson, who had won 9 WSOP titles. Or T.J Cloutier, who has won more than 50 major tournaments.
Yes, in a tourney you need luck to win, but the 1st place is not the only place that makes you a good player, specially if you won 1 tourney and nothing else.
As you said, poker is just a game, but all the games need skills and practice, and i also think that on every game the luck is a factor.
But as i said before, if you wanna play not using the mathematical factor, it´s your choice, and if you enjoy playing like that and you have fun, then it´s all right.

Its not all luck.


But yes you must agree that luck sometimes happens

If I think my hand has even the slightest hint of conncting with something I will play for the flop then decide what i want to do. Everybody talks about odds and percentages but most forget this is a game of chance and you sometimes need that little something, that breathe of Lady Luck on your neck. That's why the 7/2 offsuit will sometimes beat the AA

Ummm luck comes and goes but knowledge stays forever. Skillfull knowledgable players will always beat the chancefull luck players.

Yet there is one thing some skillfull knowlegable players foget. That everyone has thier own style of playing. Yours is and I am just guessing that you are a loose player who plays every hand possible because you crave the action.

So yes there are players like me who strive to become better at what we do and yes there are players like you that just play the game cause you enjoy playing the game no matter the outcome of the game.

So I say keep enjoying the game, I will to. I just want to strive at becoming better at the game. So when someone like me questions why you did this or did that. Say "I enjoy playing my way".

Its a game. Jesus after you download Absolute let me know how many times it locks up your computer. I gave up & deleted them.

hell isnt it a sport now a days

Poker is definantly a game of chance. I don't read poker books. There is a little skill involved but I think it's the luck of the cards.