Playing the <*{{{{{>< FISH !!!

Hi all!!!

Being hit by my normal muffs.

I know we go around in circles about this one, but I`m trying to make sense of it. Some of u guys might be able to put it better than me - feel free to do so

Like all of us, I play at tables of 8+ people. Now, and try to stay with me on this one. We are all allocated the same amount of luck - roughly. That being the case, your 10% share of luck at that table is up against 90%. So, on a regular basis, u will be up against one or two players who are having a luck streak, and no matter what you do u will not beat them - simple.

So, when u play u will sit and watch the same guy time after time catching hands. A lot of the time he will muff - he will push with 35o only to catch 2 pair or trips or a straight on the flop. Then the one time someone makes a stand, goes all in, the fish turns AA against the other guys AK. The AA, as ever, holds for the fish. This is ironic because two hands before the fish had AK v AA and he caught his A high flush on the river, beating the other guys trips on the flop!!! What u don`t see, however, is that that guy has gone out very early in almost every tourny he has played in over the past weeks. (I hope!!!)

So how do u combat it? I feel its almost impossible. U can`t bluff them. If u go in against them with less than the nuts they will bet any way. If u can`t hide the nuts they fold. U can`t play solid poker because by the time u get a hand to go to war with they will have double your chips anyway.

Some of these guys use this to their advantage - I wish I could. But how is the best way for us mortals to play against them???

The main problem I find is that playing these guys when they catch they catch big!!! It is always so well hidden. On the other hand, when us mortals bet, we don`t win much.

Also, do u guys think it is worse playing the fish at limit or no limit???

Any thoughts appreciated.

Ronaldadio - I am having nightmares of playing poker against a real fish who keeps showing 5 2`s to beat my quad Aces

This i had trouble with - we are not allocated luck, who hands it out?
where would you get it and how do you know how much you have?

There is of course not actual existence of a substance called luck - its just a word that makes our understanding of a situation a little easier.

ie. His luck is in, he's struck lucky etc.

The cards just run the they run - hot or cold

As for playing fish - it is i think one of the most annoying things on the tables i know - a sick flukey fish.

Simply put - dont try to get clever.
Just play the very best hands strongly and dont let them get lucky.
As its the sucking out that the fish excel in - as they dont know what to do they will often just call and chase to the river.

Raise you big hands and when you have them beat raise up again - basically be aggressive because if you start playing scared they will (in your eyes) start hitting cards and then you will go on tilt and lose it all.

[quote=beardyian;495234]This i had trouble with - we are not allocated luck, who hands it out?
where would you get it and how do you know how much you have?

There is of course not actual existence of a substance called luck - its just a word that makes our understanding of a situation a little easier.

ie. His luck is in, he's struck lucky etc.

The cards just run the they run - hot or cold [quote=beardyian;495234]

The point I`m trying to make here is that no one is more lucky than someone else, whatever they do. So therefore, in any form of life, luck is a state of mind, as you saying - so we agree

This is the advice I was looking for. It`s advice I have heard one hundered times, but, as you say, when you have been hit on the river 4 times in the same MTT when u were about 90% fav to win before the river u start to lose faith

When I`m not going mad, what I will do is with a hand like AQ, 99, I will push all in. That not only wins the pot in most cases, but it also slows them down.

When you see someone on a hot streak the only thing you can do is just wait. It does cool off and that is the time to get chips. The fish will still be making crazy calls thinking that this hand is the one that will turn his luck back on but it doesn't. He is totally playing to his luck while you are playing to your skill.
I myself have been on those lucky streaks, but the difference between me and a fish is as soon as it cools off I go back to playing the right way. The thing is, when you hit the luck rush and it cools, people still think you are playing the rush and will take you on. This is the time to really increase your chip stack.

The initial poster tried to sound intelligent, but it's just another long-winded way of saying, "ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!!!!"

Move along, nothing more to see here....

I`m the initial poster

Don`t be stupid. Before u make statements like that check back on some of my posts. I have never said online poker is rigged, and I never will!!!

Being an owner of a medium size recruitment agency I can tell you it does not make business sense.

So stop being a fool, check your facts first.

Well put! What we call luck is just an event occurring that is on the low end of probability. And then these events occur several times in a row, or in clusters, we call it a lucky streak. But the truth is that the odds in each event stand on their own. So you play each hand as if it is the only hand of the day. The odds of him "getting lucky" are exactly the same, regardless of what has happened before.

Put another way, if you flip a coin and it comes up heads 5 times in a row, the odds of the coin being heads on the sixth flip is still only 50/50. The first five flips don't factor into the odds whatsoever.

Play those hands correctly and the money will come back!

Stupid, uninformed comment - 'nuff said.

Thank you Coryan

So your question is what do you do about a loose-aggressive fish who is running well?

Well really there's not much you can do. Just play a solid TAG game and punish him (or try to) with your top 10 hands. You can't ask for much else than getting your money in good all in preflop; if you get beat, just keep at it and keep getting your money in good.

If his lucksack-ness is getting to you (which it sounds like it is), then change tables. The last thing you want to do is let him get to you and make you start tilting your money to him.

Thanks Chuck.

I think, if I`m honest, I need a break. The problem is I`m trying to accumilate points on Pokerstars. I`m only 200 points short of silver status. The problem is, I will benefit from the silver status next month when I get 1.5 x points all that will happen here is that I will play more and more.

I`m pushing too hard I think. I`m thinking if I can get the 200 points in the next few days I can then break for a week or so.

That i think is something people never think of doing.

If your at a table where you are getting beat or annoyed - just remember your playing on the net, there are 1,000's of tables to choose from just click on another one and 'sit down'.

Who knows this may be the best table you've ever found

Good advice, Chuck, and one that I hadn't even considered.

This is when I'm most prone to losing the most; when I play tables with people limping/playing too many hands/minbetting/minraising/chasing to the river against pot odds I think I should be able to come out ahead.

When instead I lose, I rebuy thinking I just need play some more ... and then I lose more.

The other reason for changing tables is...(brace yourself, if you're like me, you won't want to hear this)...maybe the players are better than you, at least at this time.

When we take some bad beats or lose money, we may lose a notch or two off our game. We are also not the most objective judges of the playing ability of someone who just stacked us for a full buyin. So changing tables is a good idea.

Best of all, when you leave, it doesn't matter what reason you give yourself. I never admit that I was being outplayed...I always say I'm leaving because the fish are on a lucky streak.

my new favorite word. luck sack ness.............looooooooooooool +rep chuck ( lucksackaments)

I found you have to play like a "fish" in order to beat one. Try and think along the same lines as they do. I have played against a few of these guys as well, and the only way to beat them is to play their game. I'm not saying push with 3-5o but when you catch a hand like 4-6o make a raise if it is just the two of you. any two cards have a chance against your opponents two cards if your heads up. 10-6 has just as good of chance as 5-2 hitting the flop, sometimes you have to take risks, and if your not into taking the risks then I guess your other option is to move to a different table.

Another option I found worked is to move to a higher limit table. There your raises are taken more seriously and not automatically interpreted as "this guy is bluffing". Good (but not pro, I'd say) players are also slightly more predictable, ironically, in that they play more standard poker. So I feel a bit more comfortable playing them.

Actually, this just sounds like a way to double number of the fish at that table. Sorry, but I definately would not try to beat a LAG at their own game unless it is a style you have played for a long time and are good at. Instead, you should simply play good hands and play them strong. I don't think I have ever heard of a poker pro/author suggest playing like a fish to beat a fish. Maybe adding a few more hands to your starting hands, but not 64o or T6s. Fold these hands BEFORE you even get them!

It depends on what type of fish they are. Are they callling stations? Are the minimum betters?

This is how I have lost $75. I go into the hand with the better hand and they catch some crap card on the river. Such as 33 vs AA and a 3 on the river. or JJ vs 44 and a 4 on the river. It is killing me.

I can understand your frustration. But r u sure u r not seeing your AQ v their 9 J and them catching their J/9, then u see that as a bad beat???

That is what happened to me a while age.

I agree, AA v 33 is a bad loss, but think about it, u r going to lose one of those in about 6, so u gotta accept it!!!

(This is me who normally screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeems when hit by a bb )

Guys, I'm not saying for 1 minute that "online poker is rigged" because I don't believe that it is. But I do think that their software or algorithms or the little hamsters that pedal the randomocity wheels have a lunch break every now and again. How else could you explain this...

PS tourney this evening, early stages. Four consecutive hands, all folded pre-flop.

1. K3o flop K3Q
2. K8o flop K87
3. K4o flop K4J
4. K2o flop K29

But that's not all, the very next two hands, again folded pre-flop:

5. 9h4s board was x and 4 hearts
6. Jc7s board was x and 4 clubs

I'm not wingeing because I think I should have played any of them, I think I made the right folds. But I would have won every one if I had played them!

Still came 3rd though. ;O)

I don't play in b & m casinos but can anyone tell me if this happens anywhere other than online.

Just wanted to throw that in the pot and stir it a bit.

This is being too results orientated!!!

At the time you folded it was the correct thig to do. The fact u caught a near miracle flop is not the point. Say, for example, u had 72o in the big blind. U face a raise, reraise, re reraise, U fold. The flop is 227. Was it a good or bad fold when u folded???

I had a similar situation alst night in a MTT. I was delt AKs on the button. I reraised the player in middle position. We were called by the bb and the guy in middle called. Flop Q,4,7. BB & middle checked. I raised. The other 2 guys called. turn 10. bb raised, middle called, I fold (knew one had a Q) River, u guessed it, K. Check/ check. One turned QJ, other AQ. At the time I folded, it was the right move. The Ace might have bust me, the only real out I had was the K. 5%

Good fold.

Well, I've dropped 30% of my BR in one night before, Bad beats and monkey tilt... At one point, it was so bad that this guy went all-in with 72o against my AK? or KK?, can't remember which hand was it. Flop, 2,7,7... to add insult to injury, the river gave him the nut quads. What can I say? Lucky b@stard!!

BTW 53o? That guy must be from internettexasholdem.com forum. It's a magical hand for those ITH forummers. lol.

Hi Ronald,

I agree that folding was the right thing to do, I was merely commenting on the odds of that happening in a live game. I suppose if it's possible then it will happen no matter where you play. Just seems kind of spooky!!

Btw not so sure your fold above was the right move! Depends on the size of the bets and your pot odds but you had, in fact, 7 outs. 3 kings to your pair and 4 jacks to the nut straight. That's 6:1 odds on hitting.

Keep your hand on it.

Weevel, a couple thoughts:

I believe you remember the hands that way, but I don't believe they actually fell as you remember. I don't want to go into all the reasons I believe this to be true...and let me be VERY clear that I am not saying you made this up. But our memories are very fallible and creative. When we lose at poker, we will remember events in a string that may have happened over a stretch of several hands. I once finished a tourney and was sure that I had lost about 80% of my showdowns to bad beats. When I reviewed the hand history, I found that the bad beats were only 34% of my losses. BTW, I am looking at this with years of studying human memory and brain function.

Sorry, but the odds of what you stated are more than outrageous and the logic is...well, nonexistent. First, let's look at the odds. What you suggest is that for six hands in a row, you would have flopped either two pair or a flush. Also, the first four hands would have been a king and a low card (always off suit) and they would have both flopped their pair. Also, the final two hands would have always flopped a flush with you holding a four in your hand both times. The hands have a lot in common, which make the odds much more unlikely. Okay, is it possible? Sure. This week someone will probably win the Mega Millions lottery and the odds of that are 1:175,000,000. So it is possible that you just had an extremely unusual string of hands.

But let’s go with your theory that the site is not rigged, but the algorithms (or hamsters) were not so random. What that means is that they managed to deal you, six times in a row, in a very peculiar order, these interesting hands that would have flopped two pair or a flush. They did it with a common card in each of the first four hands and a common card in the last two hands. What you are proposing is that this is anything but random. So what is it? Does the algorithm pick a player just to tease with these hands? How, or why, would this happen? Just having it happen does not explain that something is amiss; you have to have some explanation, that this one, I believe, defies explanation.

Sorry...the hamsters never managed to ratify joining the union....so they are not allow lunch breaks

OK the odds on getting EXACTLY 1 king in your hole cards is around 13.8% of the time...but lets forget about that for now....it doesn't matter that they were K_ X_ ...from a probability stand point they were two hole cards...nothing more

From a pure probability stand point, the probability of flopping 2 pair is around 1 in 49. Which, strictly speaking means that dealt ANY 2 cards and a flopping ANY 3 of the remaining cards, done 1,000,000 times you would expect to hit two pair AROUND 20408 times...which means it would NOT be unusual for you to have hit two pair only around 19,000 times NOR hit two pair around 21,000 times....ALL of which are approx. 2.04% of the time

Now comes the part that MOST people have a real, real tough time with the first time they are shown it:

Having K3os and flopped K3Q on the first hand, what is the probability
of having:

hand 2 happen next?
THEN followed by hand 3?
THEN followed by hand 4?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
the probability of hand 2 occurring next is 1 in 49 or 2.04%
the probability of hand 3 occurring next is 1 in 49 or 2.04%
the probability of hand 4 occurring next is 1 in 49 or 2.04%

Why?
Because the WHOLE DECK is reshuffled each and every time so the PROBABILITIES REMAIN THE SAME!!!!!

the probability of hand 5 occurring next is 1 in 53 or 1.89%
the probability of hand 6 occurring next is 1 in 53 or 1.89%

"Odd"? Yes.
Unlikely?...well 98% of the time it is 2% of the time it isn't

Coryan and PokerPete,

Thank you for your observations - very interesting.

I was just questioning the improbable and enormous odds against this happening with real cards and a real dealer with real hands and a nice cleavage.

In all the endless debate about whether online poker is rigged there are those who vehemently claim it is and those that defend it to the death. What about the middle ground? What you might call the "oops" factor?

I suppose what I'm really saying is that at the end of the day it's only a piece of software and software is not, and has never been, infallible.

If the mighty Microsoft and its steamy windows can f**k up with boring regularity; if an aircraft's auto-pilot can send it into the side of a mountain; if a space agency can steer a satellite to Mars and then find that the telescope bit doesn't work; if . . . well, I'm sure you get the picture!

Better working conditions and equal pay for hamsters, that's what I say.

Be lucky! (Or should I say skillful strategists?)

i got sick of this players too. after long run of tilt, where i called too much hands against players who did it to me the same why and catching their lucky card on the river. i dont understand how people can call with really really bad odds on their draws! i play nl10 and its really annoying and i thought about quitting online poker