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  Poker - ICM tools banned on Stars.
 
  #1  
23-05-2008, 5:17 PM
tenbob
Dead Man
 
Location: The high sea's
Plays at: pokerstars
Likes: Holdem
Posts: 5,039
ICM tools banned on Stars.

YAY, mid-stakes sit and go's "may" become somewhat profitable again.

From the pokerstars website.

There are some programs which have legitimate uses for analysing your game, but which are not appropriate for use during play. For example, ICM (Independent Chip Model) and Nash Equilibrium tools may be used for post-game analysis and for studying hands which you have previously played. However, you may not use such a tool while the PokerStars software is open.

SSome examples of programs which are prohibited only while PokerStars is running are:
  1. Insight Poker Hound
  2. Sit n’ Go End Game Tools
  3. SitnGo Wizard
  4. SNG Power Tools
  5. Spade ICM
  6. STT Analyzer by PokerSoftwareTools
 

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  #2  
23-05-2008, 5:38 PM
Makwa
CardsChat Regular
 
Location: Ottawa Canada
Plays at: paddy power
Likes: all of em
Posts: 481
Do you know if Poker Office is still OK?

Didn't know about those other tools -- they sound awesome, but I'm not a big fan of tools (did that come out right?). What percentage of players do you think use these?
  #3  
23-05-2008, 6:45 PM
arkadiy
CardsChat Regular
 
Location: Memphis
Plays at: FullTilt
Likes: Hold Em
Posts: 2,384
I don't even know what the hell these are lol
  #4  
23-05-2008, 6:49 PM
buckster436
Young vs. Old,>> Winner
 
Location: Fall River,Ma.
Plays at: full tilt
Likes: NL Holdem
Posts: 8,380
i dont know why anybody needs any kind of tools, ive never used any, everything i do stays in my head, and somehow when im in a hand it just pops out and tells me what to do,, its called using your own memory, i been doing that for years, i also dont use any type of poker tracker, i know how im doing by looking at my bankroll,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, buck
  #5  
23-05-2008, 6:52 PM
TWiTCHaH
Advanced Member
 
Plays at: Bodog
Likes: Hold-em
Posts: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckster436 View Post
i dont know why anybody needs any kind of tools, ive never used any, everything i do stays in my head, and somehow when im in a hand it just pops out and tells me what to do,, its called using your own memory, i been doing that for years, i also dont use any type of poker tracker, i know how im doing by looking at my bankroll,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, buck
My thoughts exactly..

All of these people that are use to playing with several programs open are going to look very confused when they sit down at a real table and don't see percentages on everyone's forhead.
  #6  
23-05-2008, 7:19 PM
WolfShadow
Junior Member
 
Location: USA
Plays at: pokerstars
Likes: holdem
Posts: 29
wow, dont I feel clueless, I cant even tell you what any1 of those tools r used for. I do like to use the holdem indicator and its cousin the tourney indicator, they are very good. They are a great way to learn Sklanskys groups as you play, and on sites like Ultimatebet they will show ur folded cards
  #7  
23-05-2008, 7:30 PM
zachvac
2 More Years
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
Plays at: Pokerstars
Likes: NL Hold 'em
Posts: 4,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckster436 View Post
i dont know why anybody needs any kind of tools, ive never used any, everything i do stays in my head, and somehow when im in a hand it just pops out and tells me what to do,, its called using your own memory, i been doing that for years, i also dont use any type of poker tracker, i know how im doing by looking at my bankroll,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, buck
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWiTCHaH View Post
My thoughts exactly..

All of these people that are use to playing with several programs open are going to look very confused when they sit down at a real table and don't see percentages on everyone's forhead.
I don't play tourneys enough to really get into ICM, but from what I know about it it's used to maximize the money you will win and uses payout structure and such to determine if a move is +$ev instead of +chipev. As for the comments about using your memory instead of tools, that's false. The people who use trackers, HUDS, and such use their memory and poker knowledge along with the tools. I play live 1-2 times a week and I practically always win (although I think someone made the analogy that beating live games is like claiming you can beat a toddler at wrestling, I'm not claiming any of these players are any good). You also cannot multi-table live so you have more time to get reads. It's just that if I'm on the edge regarding a decision, I have a hard set of data to fall back on. If you just rely on your memory you have to treat everyone as the average player.

Don't get me wrong, not saying that you need these tools to be successful, just saying that the old-school attitude of not needing any fancy tools and somehow thinking that your mind can do better than the tools is pretty arrogant and flat-out false. If you're content playing without the tools and winning, hey I'm not going to say anything, but to ridicule players who do use them and pretend they'll be lost at a live game is false.
  #8  
23-05-2008, 7:44 PM
beardyian
Hot Teddy
 
Location: In my little world
Plays at: Sanity
Likes: Justine Joli
Posts: 5,993
Ive said it before but ive often find all the extra bangles & baubles get too much in the way.
  #9  
23-05-2008, 7:54 PM
WVHillbilly
Phelps of the Felt
 
Location: Almost Heaven
Plays at: Full Tilt
Posts: 2,171
I agree about the bangles, but no way I'd ever play online without the baubles!
  #10  
23-05-2008, 7:56 PM
TWiTCHaH
Advanced Member
 
Plays at: Bodog
Likes: Hold-em
Posts: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfShadow View Post
They are a great way to learn Sklanskys groups as you play, and on sites like Ultimatebet they will show ur folded cards
There are sites that don't show which hand you folded? I would really hate that.

Bodog just stamps a "FOLDED" on the cards once you lay em down. I can't see why any site wouldn't want to do that.
  #11  
23-05-2008, 8:13 PM
Lo-Dog
recovering donkaholic
 
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Plays at: PokerStars
Likes: Texas Holdem
Posts: 1,864
ICM stands for independent chip model and is very useful to analyze situations. Never used any of the programs that figure it out while playing, just pop some numbers in when its over.
  #12  
23-05-2008, 10:57 PM
ChuckTs
kiss the sky
 
Location: not playing enough
Posts: 10,995
I'm pretty sure most of the STT players don't (didn't) use ICM tools in-game anyways, so I really don't see the games getting much softer.
  #13  
24-05-2008, 1:46 AM
MDTed
CardsChat Regular
 
Plays at: Ultimate Bet
Likes: Holdem
Posts: 408
I think any online tool that assists you in decision making in the game should be outlawed. It would be like playing chess with a chess computer next to you suggesting moves.
  #14  
24-05-2008, 6:23 AM
Munchrs
CardsChat Regular
 
Plays at: Pokerstars
Posts: 1,314
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckTs View Post
I'm pretty sure most of the STT players don't (didn't) use ICM tools in-game anyways, so I really don't see the games getting much softer.
agree. although maybe a few did and will become less tough to beat.
  #15  
27-05-2008, 9:07 AM
tnt72
Advanced Member
 
Location: Prattville AL
Likes: go fish
Posts: 124
This move by pokerstars will screw some folks up.Especially the one that use these tools as a crutch
  #16  
27-05-2008, 10:33 AM
robwhufc
Footie's back! :)
 
Location: Sittingbourne, UK
Posts: 5,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenbob View Post
YAY, mid-stakes sit and go's "may" become somewhat profitable again.

From the pokerstars website.

There are some programs which have legitimate uses for analysing your game, but which are not appropriate for use during play. For example, ICM (Independent Chip Model) and Nash Equilibrium tools may be used for post-game analysis and for studying hands which you have previously played. However, you may not use such a tool while the PokerStars software is open.

SSome examples of programs which are prohibited only while PokerStars is running are:
  1. Insight Poker Hound
  2. Sit n’ Go End Game Tools
  3. SitnGo Wizard
  4. SNG Power Tools
  5. Spade ICM
  6. STT Analyzer by PokerSoftwareTools
Great to see that Pokerstars are taking a stance against players using a computer programme in order to try and gain an advantage. Apart from the following ones that is;

Calculatem Pro
Coach Rounder
Draw Poker Source
GameTime+
Holdem Genius
Holdem Indicator
Holdem Manager
Holdem Partner
Holdem Ranger
Omaha Poker Coach
Paragon Poker Pal
Poker Academy Prospector
PokerAce HUD
Pokerbility
Poker Buddy
Poker Butler
PokerEval (Registered Version Only)
Poker EV
Poker Evolver
Poker Indicator
Poker Juggernaut
Poker Office
Poker Pro 2007
Poker Sharpener
Poker Sidekick
Poker Sniffer
Poker-Spy
PokerStat
Poker Stove
Poker Tracker
Poker Vitals
Poker Weapon
Poker Wingman
PPA Poker Calculator
SmartBuddy
Star Tracker
Stud Inspector v1
Table Shark
Telescope by SpadeIt
Texas Calculatem
ThePokerDB
Tournament Indicator
Tournament Shark
  #17  
27-05-2008, 2:33 PM
gns2003
Amateur Member
 
Plays at: ultimate bet
Likes: holdem
Posts: 69
Wow. I did not realize so many tools existed. Feel like I've been walking into battle not knowing that my opponent has the latest technology supporting his soldiers while mine go in with pistols...
  #18  
27-05-2008, 3:51 PM
Pothole
CardsChat Regular
 
Location: Harbour Grace Canada
Plays at: Absolute Poker FT Titan
Likes: RAZZ
Posts: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by gns2003 View Post
Wow. I did not realize so many tools existed. Feel like I've been walking into battle not knowing that my opponent has the latest technology supporting his soldiers while mine go in with pistols...
lol, yep it's a bit like going to a gunfight with a pocket knife.
  #19  
30-05-2008, 2:57 AM
my3sons
Junior Member
 
Plays at: pokerstars
Likes: holdem
Posts: 32
They should ban all tools from all sites
  #20  
30-05-2008, 11:54 PM
starfall
CardsChat Regular
 
Location: London, England
Plays at: Stars
Likes: Omaha Hi/Lo
Posts: 579
Tools like Poker Tracker allow you to readily analyse your play, which hands are profitable, and so on. I think these are fine. The ones you can readily object to are the ones that collect stats from multiple players and share them, giving you access to information you wouldn't be allowed otherwise.
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