I'm getting raped by the rake.

I play at pokerstars and I am running some numbers here.

After about 200 games at the lower levels ($1-$3 sit n go's, 9 player to 45 player) I'm in the money just a little under 50% of the time. From what I understand, that's not too bad, considering that I am just learning, and these 200 or so games are my first 'for money' games. My ROI , however, isn't so hot. It's 17%. But it's the rake that's killing me here. I've paid pokerstars $42.50 to play in these games -- the vast majority of which is to the 20% rake on the $1/.20 single table games. If that number were, say, cut in half, my ROI almost doubles.

So, where else can I go? I kind of like pokerstars and I am comfortable there. But I am aware that there are other poker sites that are comparable to pokerstars in terms of overall quality, but that don't don't cost as much to play.

Suggestions would be appreciated.

Pokerstars has sitngos with varying rake. 8%-20% for micro, choose wisely.

All the sites are pretty much the same for lower stakes sngs, when you move up to $5+ the fee is normally 10% but if that takes you outside your comfort zone your better of grinding it out where you are. You will however find that if your winning at the lower stakes the move to the $5 games isn't any different in game play.

i'd say a +17% ROI is something you should be happy about.

I don't like to pay more than 10% fee, that is more common once you get over the $2 buyin range... I don't notice a huge diff between 1 and 5 buyin play (slightly tighter at 5)... and ya 17% ROI is not bad...

Gives you a better understanding of just what 'cash cows' poker sites are. Full Tilt is even worse at $1/.25 and most often the 'private' games are $1/.50

But - are they really 'excessive'? There is a massive computer and communications network to pay for, operating 24/7/365, not counting a myriad of other overhead and ancillary expenses. Adding the explosion of 'rakeback' deals available, their 'rake 'n take' is reduced somewhat as well overall.

There is another way to think of it. If you are at 17% ROI after the rake, and ITM almost 50%, you're doing better than most. If this were the stock market or any other investment, could you make 17% after costs and fees on just trading 200 $1.20 shares?

I agree with Pothole on the moving up, if your BR permits, and grinding it out if it doesn't. A 45SnG at .20 only brings sites a $9 rake. Playing at $5/.50 gives the site $22.50 for a 45SnG and may only take slightly longer to play out. The rake/fees go up 250%, but the pot quintuples.

An interesting sidepoint on Stars - at the 9seat SnG's for NLHE the buyin is $1/.20 while games other than NLHE are $1/.10 to attract players. It's the law of supply and demand operating at maximum efficiency.

GL if you move up.... ... just keep in mind that if you do, you'll save a little on fee percentages, but you also risk losing 5 times as fast at the $5/.50 ...

Seriously. Nothing wrong with your results.

The $1s do have an especially high fee at %20, but even with that doubled rake you're doing quite well.

Its pretty standard to get Raped at the Micro Levels with the rake..Get up to the 5 dollar SNG;s so you dont have to pay 20 percent...

Alright, well, I appreciate the input here. I think one of the reasons why I am in a bit of a panic over this is that my ROI seems to be dropping over time. That and a couple of articles I read online state that a good ROI is above 20%. I seem to be hitting the money at the same rate as always, but the percentage of return has steadily gotten lower and now fluctuates pretty wildly between 10 and 20%. That said, I realize that 200 games really isn't a big number from which to determine yet exactly how I am doing. 400-500 games will probably present a better picture.

Not sure I am ready to move up with the amount of money I am playing with. I just recently started playing more frequently in the $3 games, and while I am making a little more of a return on those (and hitting the money at a slightly higher rate than the $1 games), I think I will need a bit more of a cushion before I feel good about going up yet another level. A few bad nights in a row at the $5 level would clean me out. I started playing with the free $5 they gave me for opening my account and I am pretty proud of the fact that I haven't yet had to reload. I'd just as soon keep playing and growing my roll at my current rate than risk it by moving up too soon.

Anyway, thanks for the responses.

You shouldn't play on pokerstars or full tilt when you play micros. Sites like Everest Poker - www.EverestPoker.com have 10% rake starting at $.10+0.01. When you move to higher stakes, pokerstars and tilt are great because of the availability of games, but for micros you should really consider moving your bankroll to some other site

Ultimate Bet has a 10% rake on pretty much all sng's including 50 cent & $1 buy ins

PokerStars tends to offer more 10% rake SNGs in the Turbo category. It's a different game, but you might want to shift there until you have the BR for the $5.50 games.

I have to chuckle sorry man. I just played at Hollywood Park Casino at the $100 nl game and the rake at that table was $6/hand if it made it to the turn.

Shop around do this, do that really,if your happy on that site stick with it and move up as so many have advised. Could you be making more likely, but you seem to have this site figured and thats allways a good thing. Peace

Well you could register on a rake back site and get a % back

Pokerstars is funny that way. If you check the super low 0.10 360 player sng for PokerStars it actually has 0% rake and then for some of the micro tourneys (less than a buck buy in) during the day they add money again with 0% rake. But it jumps to 20% for the buck sng. While at the buck buyin I play at Ultimatebet to avoid the 20% rake where it is 10%. Players at this level are about the same at both sites, maybe the only difference is that UB players play a more standard tight game, making it more predictable in the longrun. BTW congrats on the positive ROI, I was checking one of the sites the other day and found out that only about a third of players have a positive ROI.

The way I understand the math cash games are raked at approximately 5% and tournement surcharges are 10% or more. You can also get rakeback for cash games at most rooms, of course not Stars. I do NOT see the allure of tournies