Is the hit and run strategy considered bad etiquette?

I was playing 5/10 pot limit omaha the other day where i won a 1.2k pot after putting all my money on the flop and beating my opponent with a higher two pair. After winning the pot i quickly sat out, then the guy started berating me and saying that it was bad etuiqette to use the hit n run tactic, i was just wondering if this is true or not?

Isnt that the whole point of cash games, to make a profit and leave while your up?

Yes, it is considered bad etiquette. Probably doesn`t matter much in an online game, since you may never meet the other players again anyway. Best avoided in a live game, though, if you want to be welcome at that card room another day.

Simplest solution, whether live or online, is to sit in for another round of blinds before you stand up. During that time, fold anything except AA, KK, or QQ. Then, when you stand up, if the others think about it at all they will assume you are leaving because you are card-dead and bored, rather than because you are grabbing their money and running.

The best way to explain it is - how would you feel if it was your money that just went from the table

You would at least want the chance of winning some of it back - even if the player wasnt doing much himself.

If my money left the table straight away i would feel pretty unhappy, but thats my whole point, not to let him or any one else win it back, and as egon said you rarely play these players again let alone meet them in real life , so i couldnt care less if i took his money. But in a live situation i would never do this, if i had won a huge pot i would at least play for another half hour or so, folding most of my hands and tightening up, and then i would leave so the other players cant peg me as a person who is just using that tactic.

I cannot stand either the hit & run or the hit & sit. However, if I just won a $1200 pot- I''d leave the room like it was on fire.

seriously, though- turn your chat off and let the guy vent.

Screw etiquette. Lots of other people would do it to you. There is no poker etiquette board that will besmirch your name because you won a pot and left.

People do alot of things that are bad etiquette that I consider far worse than a smash and grab. Like Hellmuth's tirades and Gold's table talk.

Although live, it would be best to play another round or two.

Screw etiquette? That makes me sad. Why do we strive for civil conversation here if cyber life and real life have such vastly different rules? Just because we *can* behave with some measure of impunity online doesn't necessarily make it ok (imvho). We're each free to choose our own way, though. I just worry that if we say screw etiquette, how long til we're saying screw ethics? Not saying hit n run is unethical. I don't believe it is. Don't think it's very sporting, but that's just me. I guess I just don't get where the difference in behavior in live vs online comes from. I'm the same everywhere. But again, that's just me and I don't mean to imply that everyone should make the same choice. We're free to do as we please. Didn't mean to get preachy. Or off topic. Just a sticky subject for me. Sorry. Carry on....

You have no obligation to stay, simple as that.

Theres plenty of money online for him 2 win his money back, Its not like those dollars have his name on em.

100% with smd on this one. For online play - the whole point of ring games is to win the other players' money by any means within the rules.

Unless the software is designed to force you to stay for a set period of time then Hit & Run, in my book, is all part of the strategy of online poker.

Staying a bit longer to give others the chance of winning their money back!!!??? What are we? Playing with five-year olds??

Live - sit for another round of blinds, giving the appearance of letting them win some $$ back. Maybe even limp a hand or two.

On-line - That's what the X in the uper right corner of the window is for!

I concur.

I didn't think your post was preachy at all, just adding to the conversation. My wording of "Screw etiquette" was a bit off base overall, but I meant it more in terms of the direct question of whether leaving after winning a big pot was bad etiquette. If you look at the rest of my post, I point out other instances where I consider certain behaviors to be worse. I'm not saying that their should be civil unrest either online or live.

The difference in online vs live should be apparent. If you call someone a moron/idiot online, there isn't much they can do about it except report you to the site which would ban your chat. If you say that live to the wrong person, you might wind up on the ground or banned from the casino (if it gets really heated).

In regards to winning a big pot, why should the person be given an opportunity to win it back as a rule of etiquette? Say we reload and try to win it back and fail again, do we then keep the person who won twice tied to the table for a triple or nothing?

Well, screw etiquette is not what I mean to support, civility is one of CCs selling points, but one is under no obligation to play, sit out or leave, other than what they deem to be in their own best interest.

I've seen some people do it on ftp. they come in take a large pot and leave. I prefer to stick around and see if i can take down a few more. I usually go to a table with a certain amount then have and ending amount once that is reached I leave.
Gl

if i had won a 1.2k pot i would go nuts and leave the table before the next hand started, so i agree with your hit and run for this one. since its online i think that it is ok

hit and run may be considered "wrong" because from what I have seen at least at a table where someone wins a big pot and leaves, everyone complains. the thing about that though is that everyone complains even if they weren't in the pot and the reason is is because the big winner just left with a bunch of chips and they dont get a chance to win it back, but i have been on the wrong end of that and the one who either lost or wasn't in the hand. i can't fault that person for leaving because they keep the money and i would do the same thing and have. maybe i am just ranting, sorry all

I am with SMD - there is no rule or law that mandates you sit there for another round of blinds!!! You've got to be kidding me - limp for a hand or two to allow them to win some money back!!! That is not why I play the game - to make the other players feel ok or to feel liked.

It's about the money and that's why it's called the bottom line.

Couldn't agree with you more, rain. Poker is poker, etiquette is etiquette. No one would jump up from a live table after a big pot, probably from fear of not even making it to the door, but hopefully because it's just poor form. But you see it all the time online. There's a whole list of common online offenses that players wouldn't dare try to pull at a live game, but they seem to think acceptable in an internet room. Here are my pet peeves:

1.) Rants and taunts. Someone takes a bad beat and goes on about it for fifteen minutes. Or some donkey sucks out a big hand and immediately pulls out the sarcastic "Thanks" and "LOL". Dweebs who would never say 'boo' to someone face-to-face across the table turn into tough guys in the safety of their anonymous dens. And here's a tip...observer chat is for saying hello to a friend at another table, not railbirding after you've been eliminated. Show some class and find another table.

2.) Dumping chips. Someone gets bored, or shortstacked, or entered a tournament they knew they didn't have time to complete. Instead of doing the correct thing, which is simply standing up and allowing their chips to blind out, they start going all in to purposely bust out. Forgive me, but I have a real problem with my opponents being gifted with someone's entire stack. Chip dumping will get you canned at a brick-&-mortar casino, but no one bats an eye at it online.

3.) Announcing pockets. Often goes hand-in-hand with #2. It's not enough for the unthinking clout to give his chips away. He also has to declare his all-ins pre-deal AND tell the table the rags he has in the hole. Another variation is folding and telling your cards while the hand is still in progress. I know this actually crosses the line between bad etiquette and outright rules violations, but it's rarely given a second thought in online play. In fact, the next time someone does it, try calling them on it. Not only will the offender not care, but the rest of the table will roast YOU for being a hardassed jerk! Unbelieveable.

4.) Chatting someone up when they're involved in a hand. Wait until they're idle before asking them how their favorite team is going to do this season, or whether they're in the big tourney later.

5.) Slow play. Yes, there's a clock, and yes, you are entitled by rule to every tick of it before taking action. But players who use it all up on every hand ruin the game for everyone else at the table and are just being rude. Save the time bank for truly difficult decisions, not whether you're even going to enter the pot. And I don't care if you're playing three other tables. If you can't keep up with the game play, close a couple of them.

6.) Playing like an idiot because it's "play money" or a freeroll. You either respect the game of poker or you don't. It really shouldn't matter what the environment is, you ought to have enough integrity to play it straight every time you sit down. Going all in four straight times with rags isn't funny, or cute, or "the way you play freerolls". The only place where that's common wisdom is in Donkey Land.

I think the biggest reason for the horrible table manners of this whole generation of poker players is that most of us learned how to play online, and online poker is our only point of reference. I hate to offer ignorance as a valid excuse, but it is probably the reason. They just don't know any better. Monkey see, monkey do.

Valid point. I learned to play live and, although 99% of my play is online now, I still play the way I learned and wouldn`t consider doing any of the dumb tricks you mention.

Very nice post RJ. +rep

I disagree with you here.....I've often asked kings?? or said to someone with a name like lionsfan....well at least if I lose you're a lions fan.

There are so few ways to get a read on someone online, acting relaxed by asking some silly question could make a person feel you're very comfortable with your all in.

I think it's just part of the "game".

I do agree with your other points, this one tho, live or online *I* don't really see it as bad ettiquette.

Hellmuth often will make stupid comments when someone is considering a big bet but will go crazy when it's HIS turn to make the big bet.

Using Phil Hellmuth as an example in a discussion of poker etiquette is like using Atilla the Hun in a discusson of peaceful coexistence.

Hm, you won a 1.2k pot and you are asking if hit and running is bad etiquette or not ? Seems strange since 5/10 PLO is overrun with hit and run artists and even at lower stakes, it is frown upon severly so you would have encountered a few of them and the comments left in the chat box before...

Anyway, yes it is bad etiquette and I don't recommend doing it at all since at the higher levels (or even at 5/10 PLO), people won't be willing to play you if they know you'll go south with their money. 5/10 PLO doens't have all that much different players and you see the same faces a lot, you'll get tagged and people will recognize you. Sit another round of blinds (or two) and then quit: hit and running all the time will become very -EV in the long run since people will try to run you over, deny you action, wich will eat at your winnings much more than 30$ out of a 1.2k pot.

With regard to the hit and run strategy... should you really be thinking about it just in "well there's no rule against it" terms? I'm mostly a tournament / SnG player (both live and online) so it doesn't come up often for me, but I still think there's something more important to consider. And that is:

Every time you hit and run, you'll likely either make an enemy who'll gun for you next time they see you at the table, or you'll make an enemy who won't want to sit down next time they see you at the table. Neither is a good thing.

If it were me, I'd see staying at the table a little while longer after a big win as an investment in the future. The best thing that can ever happen to you is finding someone who's actually happy to come back for another go after you've taken all their money off them

I think its a good strategy, especially if you have been drinking. Who wants a DUI and an accident on their license? jk

One of Chris Ferguson's rules is to quit if his stack gets bigger than 10% of his bankroll. This is not consistent with those who say "stay for x amount of time".

he also says that he will stay and get his free hands

I kind of assumed that was a given. Perhaps I did not realize standing up immediately meant even before the BB got to you.

Online you see this a lot and honestly if your playing online I say its not bad etiquette. So many people use this and online there is no need to remmember how people play so its not as big of a deal. In live poker yes this is extremely bad ettiquete and the better players will remember your face and probally will cause you trouble in the future

OP is talking about 5/10 PLO, not micros where nobody tries to get a solid read on anybody for the future since there's an endless stream of faces. These guys log in many thousands hands a months against the same opponents and often datamine to gain and edge, so yeah, they will remember you if you pull this off.

Going south is despicable. Why do something online that would have you spit on or at least not invited anymore in a live game?

wow, ppl have different points of thought on this one. Well it's true that online and live play are different, but the fact is the same, i mean if u wouldn't want something done to u then why do it to others.

If you're playing PLO this above is the real and only reason you shouldn't hit and run, because the pool of players isn't exactly very large at 5/10 and in the long run it will hurt you because you can be sure they will remember.

I say its the only reason not because I don't believe in etiquette, but because online is full of these players, many of them are actually of the variety that don't even wait for their BB. A few months ago when I started playing real money this type of behavior would make me upset, but it no longer does. I actually find it funny now when after taking down a pot they don't even stay to look at the next hand their dealt. Part of the reason why I don't care is that I play holdem so usually the player that leaves gets replaced quickly. Of course you would like a chance to get your money back against the same player (cause in many instances its a donk that got you on a bad beat) but there is nothing you can do.

Having been a victim of this many times, I understand the message some of the posters here are trying to deliver but online its pointless to try and teach etiquette to the large mass of lowlifers that populate these games. It's like preaching in a desert. Just look at what happens when people can't get a password for a freeroll. Some of the common sense table non written rules listed by Rammer Jammer that constantly get broken are, to a certain extent, even worse than hitting and running.

However, all that I said above applies mostly to low limits. Even if I haven't played high limits I'm quite sure that the higher you go the more it will resemble B&M type of environment, therefore hitting and running should not be a part of your repertoire. Not to mention that the pool is considerably smaller, and if you do this consistently you might struggle to get action. Occasionally I watch high limit limit games and I've noticed how players with a big stack sit out, leaving the money on the table and not banking it, and then later on sit in again and play.

I would suggest, since you play PLO 5/10, not to repeat this type of behaviour because in the long run it will damage you. What makes it worse is that the likelyhood of your opponents, in those levels, pulling this to you is much smaller compared to the lower limits. Had this been at a $0.25/$0.50 table I would have told you to don't even bother answering the guy that was berating you, since at those stakes the hit and run is pretty routine. The fact its low stakes doesn't make it right, but you'll be a victim of it so many times that you won't lose your sleep for (incorrectly) doing it.

Wow, this has been a really interesting discussion. I agree with some points on both sides and it makes me cringe as I'm starting to question some of things that I follow.

However, I for one am not a fan of those who hit-and-run. Yet, I see it, understand why players do it and just try to get over it and focus on whose left on the table. Yeah, there is less money on the table (including money that used to be yours) but I just keep recalling one of Caro's rule stating something along the lines that once money is on the table, it doesn't belong to anyone...it's on the table or it's in the pot and it doesn't belong to anyone until they cash out.

Plus, I know it's a different game, online and real-life but I treat it the same. Regardless if I'm playing online (PokerRoom, UB, FTP, etc..) or in a B&M Casino near where I live (Toronto), if I've taken down a large pot, I stick around for at least one more pass of the button, maybe even more if I think that it's a good table and similar opportunities to pick up some more large pots present themselves. Am I worried about losing the money I've earned? Yes, but there's always a risk/gamble factor in the game, no matter all the odds calculations one player may do - it's part of the game - you have to put the chips forward to have a shot at getting more.

I've come up through learning first in real-life, learn more through online play and then even more as a part-time dealer watching different types of players and styles including hit-and-run. So, perhaps you can see where I'm coming from as well and why. Good luck on the tables and thanks for the discussion. Cheers