Fulltilt poker is being dictitorial about a withdrawal

I have been having a very hard time getting my money out of fulltilt poker, am I being unreasonable?

Their customer service is about as bad as I have ever seen. If anyone has a suggestion on what I could do to withdraw all my funds it would be appreciated. Can they just steal their users money like this and get away with it?

My responses were written quickly and may not be perfectly thought out but still how can a company act like this?

If this isn't stealing what is it?, with no remedy offered.

Below is my correspondence with them. The only thing I changed were the fulltilt usernames. I can hardly believe their customer service.


This is an automated message sent from Full Tilt Poker.

Your Player ID: myFTuserName
From Player ID: MyMomsFTUserName
Date and Time: 2011-04-16 18:36:13
Transfer Number: 08222D35
Amount: $200.00 (USD)

Status: APPROVED

Fulltilt declines the transfer (1st time):

Your Player ID: myFTuserName
Date and Time: 2011-04-19 12:59:35
Transfer Number: 082231EB
Payment Method: InstaDebit
Amount: $200.00 (USD)

Status: DECLINED

Your withdrawal request has been declined. Please review your
personal account information to ensure that it is the same as the
information stored with your payment processor. You may correct
any of your personal information and try again. If you are still
unsuccessful, you may wish to try one of the other available
withdrawal methods.

Fulltilt's 1st correspondence with me:

Hello Bruce,

This email is to inform you that your recent withdrawal request has been declined.

Since our previous warning, you have continued to attempt to withdraw funds from Full Tilt Poker on behalf of other players. Our services are not provided solely to facilitate the movement of online funds, and we do not permit players to use our site for this purpose.

Your Full Tilt Poker account is temporarily closed until you reply to this email to acknowledge that you will not request withdrawals for other players going forward.

Thank you for your cooperation, and we look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Conor
Financial Security
Full Tilt Poker

Bruce's reply:

It is my money now, it has been transferred to me legitimately! MyMomsFTUserName
hasn't complain has she? Why can not yoeyoe transfer funds back to me
if she wants, does she not have the right to give her money to whom
she pleases? I am the one that deposited in the first place and
transfered it to MyMomsFTUserName account!!!! MyMomsFTUserName has never deposited ever.
As I stated in an earlier email MyMomsFTUserName is my mother, I
am her son.

What gives you the right to not release my money??? You sure were
happy enough to take it using instadebit!! All the money in both
account is from me, which kind of makes it mine doesn't it? ... so I
am withdrawing my money!!!! Once again check your records on
depositing, I am the only one that deposited, all the money in mine or
MyMomsFTUserName's accounts.

I was going to just take $200 and was going to continue to play at
fulltilt but now I want to remove everything and be done with this
site because of this.

Are you now going to steal my money? When did MyMomsFTUserName ever make a
deposit? Who other than me transferred funds to her? These a
rhetorical questions as all the money in both accounts is from me. So
as you demanded an answer in your last email I demand and answer ...
are you going to steal my money? Are you a thief?

Of coarse you would have let me play with that money and lose it, but
you won't let me withdraw ... very disturbing behavior indeed.

I will be awaiting your reply. I doubt I will be getting one as I
didn't get one from my last response to your email. I am coming to
believe this fulltilt operation is a really shady business. And if I
don't get a response it is not over.


Hello Bruce,

This email is to inform you that your recent withdrawal request has
been declined.

Since our previous warning, you have continued to attempt to withdraw
funds from Full Tilt Poker on behalf of other players. Our services
are not provided solely to facilitate the movement of online funds,
and we do not permit players to use our site for this purpose.

Your Full Tilt Poker account is temporarily closed until you reply to
this email to acknowledge that you will not request withdrawals for
other players going forward.

Thank you for your cooperation, and we look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Conor
Financial Security
Full Tilt Poker

Fulltilt declines the transfer (2nd time):

Your Player ID: myFTuserName
Date and Time: 2011-04-23 10:49:06
Transfer Number: 0828E31F
Payment Method: InstaDebit
Amount: $200.00 (USD)

Status: DECLINED

Your withdrawal request has been declined. Please review your
personal account information to ensure that it is the same as the
information stored with your payment processor. You may correct
any of your personal information and try again. If you are still
unsuccessful, you may wish to try one of the other available
withdrawal methods.

Bruce's reply:

What policy am I going against? I am not trying to as you say,
"attempt to withdraw funds from Full Tilt Poker on behalf of other
players". She transferred that money to me, why can't she do this with
her own money? As I mentioned before all the money in both accounts
has been deposited by me.

I did give my mother Christmas and birthday presents as transfers
since she loves poker and I thought it would be a good gift. When the
recent news came out about fulltilt and some other sites she was
worried that she had too much money in her account and wanted to
withdraw it, I told her she could transfer it to me at which point I
gave her $200 cash to cover her transfer (is this money not mine since
my mother was compensated with the $200 cash I gave her?). So she
transferred the money, she received the $200 from me so now I am out
the $200 because you won't allow me to take my money out.

It is obviously easier for me to withdraw using instabank as it is how
I put the money in ... and may I remind you that all the money in
either account was put in by me. My mother doesn't have a way to
withdraw setup right now so it seemed to be the easiest way to do this
since I am setup with instabank. I just don't see what I am doing that
is wrong.

If you would like I can give you both my mother's
phone number and mine and you can talk to each of us.
What I stated above is true and I just don't see how you can call it
being transferring money on behalf of other players. So when someone
transfers money it isn't their money ... at what point does it become
their money ... when they lose it???? Would you have allowed me to
play a $200 sit and go ... I think you would, it is only when I wanted
to withdraw it that it became a problem with you. It's not even a
large sum of money and you have now made me sour on fulltilt poker. It
sad that my first withdrawal has gone like this ... I enjoyed playing
here but you have force my hand to quit.

The $200 is mine and not hers ... I paid her $200 cash already just
after the transfer so how am I "attempting to withdraw funds from Full
Tilt Poker on behalf of other players"?

I am not going to push my mother to quit Fulltilt, but after this I
just don't think I can play here anymore. So I want to withdraw the
money I have in this fulltilt account, all of it now not just the
$200. How can I get my money out?

I look forward to your reply.

Fulltilts reply:

Hello Bruce,

Thank you for your response.

As previously mentioned, we cannot take exceptions to our policies. Our services are not provided solely to facilitate the movement of online funds, and we do not permit players to use our site for this purpose.

Please reply to this email to acknowledge that you will not withdraw funds that you received from other players.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Regards,

Jason
Cashier
Full Tilt Poker

My reply:

Please pass these emails to someone higher than you. I'm done wasting
my time with cashiers. I think you are being totally unreasonable with
the facts I sent you. Fulltilt approved the transfer, once the
transfer has been approved it is my money I can do what I want with
it. Why did you approve it? Would I have been able to use that money
and gamble with it? ... answer me that. You haven't answer any of my
questions.

I will probably be posting these email correspondences on some social
networking and poker sights .... so I will be awaiting your answers.
Also point to the information you claim I have violated which states
that after a transfer has been made and also approve by fulltilt poker
and both parties that are involve in the transfer are in agreement
that the player who received the funds cannot withdraw it ... I want
to read that.

I have asked you how I could get this money out ... I haven't received
one answer to that question as of yet. Is this money now locked up at
fulltilt, what right do you have to do this? As I have said in a
earlier emails this seems to be like stealing. You approved the
transfer than tell me how to use my money? What, I have to play and
lose it to make you happy and I can never withdraw it? What type of
organization do you run there?

Please forward all our correspondence to a higher authority ... you
have been totally unreasonable. You haven't told me how to get access
to my funds and you have locked me out of fulltilt poker, your emails
are very vague and do not answer any of my questions. I want to deal
with some higher authority who will give me answers and point to the
articles that show that an approve fulltilt transfer cannot be
withdrawn. Also is my money locked up forever? What rights to you
have to do this?

I will be awaiting your answers to my questions. Please this time
answer my questions and do not just send me vague form type letters.

Fulltilts reply:

Hello Bruce,

Thank you for contacting us.

As previously explained to you, it is against site policy to simply withdraw funds from another player. Funds are to be used for play on the table and of course any winnings you are eligible to withdraw.

We are not a financial institute where people can simply hand each other money then withdraw it.

Please comply to our instructions stating that you will not withdraw funds from other players. This is our final decision on the matter. Failure to do so may lead to a permanent closure of your account.

Thank you for your cooperation. If you have any questions, please feel free to email us.

Regards,

Daniel



My reply:

Once again no answers to my questions. No quality customer service. I am corresponding to a low level person and not even allowed to corespondence with a higher authority. Once again I receive a vague type form letter.

Still no remedy to this situation and a dictatorial attitude with my money akin to thievery. No pointing to where your policies are that I have violated. I searched your website for one I couldn't find it.

Your final decision is unacceptable ... move all my correspondence to your manager that can give me a remedy to this situation.

Unbelievable!!!

This is not over.

And what you would say if I somehow would get in your account, transfer funds to mine account and then withdraw? This time it's your own fault and Full Tilt has done nothing wrong!

did you even read it? I didn't get into anyone elses account, they transferred the funds to me and I gave them cash to cover it. Both parties were in perfect agreement on this transaction.

It looks like they're accusing you of money laundering which it kinda looks like you were doing, I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding but considering their present legal troubles I can't imagine this is going to be cleared up quickly(if ever)

So when you were playing on your other account (in Mom's name) do you have both accounts playing on same tables too... or did you just make up 2nd account for deposit bonuses?

Welcome to the forum & 'cool intro. post'

lmao you sound like a giant douche. they're not accusing you of anything shady, they're just doing what they have to do to cover their own backs because poker sites have been and will be used for money laundering.

this is all you need to know, now stop being so damn stubborn and just tell them you'll adhere to the terms and conditions that you signed up for in the first place and won't use them like an online banking service any more, then they'll give you your money and you can leave forever if you feel so hard done by.

so tempted to change the topic title to "i'm being a giant douche about a withdrawal". :/

lmfao

The OP is about as bad as Dave90lee!!!!

Oh wait a minute, I am not that bad!!!

....

sorry to say, your the reason why your in this situation. Good luck with that!

They have frozen your account until you email them promising not to launder an more money and for some reason you find it difficult to make that promise.

They even say this isn't the first time they have warned you.

I really don't see why an honest person would do anything other than email them back promising to not launder any more money.

lol, ha ha ha.. Love it!! Please do. Guar. vote from me for TTOTM ThreadTitleOftheMonth

Tell em to cough up the money immediately or your gonna boycott their site & tell all your US friends to do the same.

all you have to do is play a bunch for a week or two ...then try to cash out

Put some of that money in games / tourneys, play slowly, and you will be able to withdrawit, but do not make any suspicious trasnfers plus withdrawals of the exact same amount or you might get banned.

IQ test should be mandatory before giving allowance to post/reply!!! Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscious stupidity. Some of the reply's obviously came from people who are mentally mutilated beyond any hope of regeneration.
For the start, take some time and look up the meaning of the term "money laundering" before you come here and transform your big brain fart into the post/reply.
Second, the problem is legit and can be solved with minimal effort. The problem lies in incompetent employees and management.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist in order to resolve this issue, however, you do have to be a complete imbecile not to be able to investigate the legitimacy of original posters issue.

Cheers!

dCom, clearly you have issues greater then being unable to withdrawl from FullTilt.

A good day to you sir.

dCom is not the original poster maybe, original posters mom.

You don't get it, do you?

To prevent money laundering, I think poker sites usually require that you bet whatever amount you were transferred before you can cash it out.

So if I had $100, and someone transferred me $200, I'd have to either play $200 worth of tournaments or wager at least $200 worth of bets in ring games before I could cash out the $300. But I could cash out the $100 at any time.

At least, that's how I've always understood how it works.

Is this for real?
Can't the OP even see that they are..........OUT OF THEIR MINDS!!!!!

Just a break down for the ones still confused.

It's trivial (assuming OP is not lying).

1. Account1 deposit $200.
2. Account1 transfer $200 to Account2.
3. Account2 never made a single deposit or withdrawal.
4. Account2 transfers back $200 to Account1.

All this can be easily verified by FTP.

Now let's review FTP response:
"Our services are not provided solely to facilitate the movement of online funds"
"As previously explained to you, it is against site policy to simply withdraw funds from another player."
"We are not a financial institute where people can simply hand each other money then withdraw it."

Conclusion? FTP customers support is a group of blockheads who either didn't bother to investigate the issue, or it is just a bunch of mutants devolved from humans into monkeys (if that).

Besides finding out that conveying information to other human being is totally lost on FTP, I was surprised to see such ignorance from members of this forum, which can be only explained by severe degradation of their cognitive abilities and social deformation. Rather then helping or at least considering the issue of the OP, they resorted to trolling and judging.

I've been playing on FTP for long time and luckily never had similar problems. Certainly, I would be super pissed if something like this happened to me. I stumbled across this thread by mere accident. I'm glad I did. It is not secrete that FTP has bad reputation when it comes to customer service (incomparable to PS), but this is ridiculous. Those douches bags trying to make you apologize and beg for your own money when you've done nothing wrong is not a pleasant experience. No business should be allowed the freedom of handling their affairs in this way. You should consider that before posting all kinds of nonsense.

For the end the quote that will cheer you up from a star of the thread:
"And what you would say if I somehow would get in your account, transfer funds to mine account and then withdraw? This time it's your own fault and Full Tilt has done nothing wrong!"

Karstais my friend, what can I say, it's a perfect crime. You get in to my account, transfer money to yourself, then transfer that same money back to me, and withdraw to my bank account. Genius!

Good luck to everyone.

That makes sense. One way transaction + withdrawal on the other side could be a possible exploit for money laundry. However, the cashier/software should be aware of the amount of money transferred back and forth, so the issues like OP had could be avoided. It is most likely that FTP and other poker rooms keep log of virtually everything for security/fraud reasons. With that in mind I don't see why this issue can't be easily resolved.

It is really nice to see that someone here is actually trying help and provide some useful information.

To original poster:
At this point, my suggestion is to acknowledge that you will not withdraw funds that you received from other players, get your money out and forget about this ugly experience.

Cheers!

It can be easily resolved. OP just has to tell FTP support that he will no longer attempt to make a withdrawal on behalf of another person, then stop trying to make a withdrawal on behalf of another person. Simple as that. He should have his mom send in the verification documents that FTP requires and have her make her own deposits/withdrawals. (which, coincidentally is the proper outlined procedure anyways)

To insult our intelligence like you just brazenly done speaks volumes to the low level of your own. FTP has certain practices in place, all of which are easily found in the Terms of Service agreement that all players agree to in the registration process. Little things like the conditions of transfers and withdrawals are covered in said ToS. Ignorance is not an excuse. The OP's problem is easily rectified, but he just refuses to do things the easy way.

FTP's customer service is not an issue here. As with any gaming site, if chose to play there, you must play by their rules. If you chose to ignore/break/bitch about those rules you are SOL as you agreed to follow said rules when you agreed to the ToS. Not following the rules and procedures enough times will result in you account being frozen, your money seized and possibly a lengthy bitch post on a forum.

So now that one of us "mentally mutilated" has, again, spelled out the way to rectify this in simple terms, maybe you and the OP can wrap your head around it.

And BTW, nice use of the thesaurus there bud. You almost came off as intelligent. It was your way of arguing your point than your use of petty insults that gave you away...

"Little things like the conditions of transfers and withdrawals are covered in said ToS."
Pardon my ignorance, but I've found close to nothing resembling the issue discussed here. Could you please enlighten us with excerpt from ToS that applies to this particular situation.

"To insult our intelligence like you just brazenly done speaks volumes to the low level of your own."
True. My levels are dynamic and adaptable to situation and crowd. In this case, my cruelty was just a product of yours. Some people deserve to hear things like this. It's strictly educational. Next time, they might actually think beforehand.

"So now that one of us "mentally mutilated" has, again, spelled out the way to rectify this in simple terms, maybe you and the OP can wrap your head around it."
Sincerely, I don't think you are "mentally mutilated". Unlike others, your post is eloquent and it leads in the right direction.

"And BTW, nice use of the thesaurus there bud."

Thanks. I use thesaurus and dictionary extensively since college. I would suggest everyone to do the same, specially to non native English speakers like me. It is a great way to broaden your vocabulary and improve your literacy.

"You almost came off as intelligent."
Almost is good enough. Thank you.

It's way too late for me to browse the ToS of FTP for an excerpt. The OP can easily do this on his own as he is the one who is having the problem.

I must make an apology. You see, this is my home forum. Aside from the Camaro forum I am a part of, this is my home. These loyal members are my family and sometimes I get defensive, and subsequently offensive when a new guy comes in and starts insulting. Of course that is not a reason for me to throw insults myself, so I apologize. You seem to be well spoken and thoughtful, even though you got off on the wrong foot here.

I hope that you don't let the interaction with some of the members, including myself, in this thread spoil the CardsChat experience for you. If you stick around for a while, you will soon learn that some of us can harsh, but that is just their/our way at times and in the end we are only trying to help.

No need to apologize.

You are absolutely correct, I got off on the wrong foot and I took it way too far. I apologize to everyone for my irrational outburst and I assure you it will not happen again.

Im glad to see that you realize where you went wrong.Mmembers here will give you very good advice,If you will read and comprehend it.
Since the Feds are clearly watching Fulltilt,they are not going to do anything even slightly shady.,but they wouldnt even if the feds werent watching them.My advice is,dont try anything,and play an honest game.Never get involved with another players account,is My policy,and therefore I have never ever had any cashout declined or in question.
I dont send or recieve money to other players either.unless it involves a bounty game or similiar.I believe in making it on my own,and it has made me a better player,because now I know I can start with nothing,and freeroll my way up to a cashout.Ive done it more times than I can count.Its a good feeling,knowing you can do it too.Great advice in this thread guys,live n learn.

+1
The reason they are declining your request is because it could appear at face value to be a 'money laundering' attempt.
They are declining your request in order to protect their business...which is already under some pretty serious investigations on other matters.
From their perspective, since your 'mom' is transferring money to your account which you are then trying to withdraw almost instantly, it appears to them that the money is in fact your mothers.
I'll give you one example.
You and your Mom are living together. Your mom is unemployed and is on welfare. In most welfare systems, they 'claw back' a percentage of money that a person on welfare might make while working part-time or casual. This allows the state to recover a portion of public money and it encourages people to try to work among other things.
Some people will try to make money by working 'under the table', thus they make that money plus they collect welfare.
Now let's say your mom was playing online poker. She played in a cardschat freeroll, and took 1st place for 40 bucks or so. Then she goes on an "Isildur1" style epic heater and turns $40 of freeroll money into $1000.
Now if she transfers that money from her poker account to her bank account, she's probably going to forfeit any welfare money for several weeks because they'll claw it back.
But if she transfers the money to you thru 'player transfer', and then you withdraw the money into your own bank account, then you can give her, 'her money', and nobody at the welfare office will know, and she'll make several hundred extra dollars at least.
You could do the same kinda thing to avoid paying back employment insurance overpayments, alimony, court ordered restitution, etc..etc..
"This" is why the site is stopping you. And no amount of letter writing on your part is going to change it because there is no way they can confirm your legitimacy, and they aren't going to risk being charged with anymore offences.
(P.S. i really should have read the last post to see that he 'got it' before wasting 5 mins of my life writing a good example,lol)

I must've missed this recent stuff..... looks like Bruce is now multi-accounting on here too (or maybe it's his Mom?)
Bruce, dcOm, egr7, Bruce's Mom, egr7's Mom... or dcOm's Mom... or even just dcOm. Once you've been on a forum for any length of time you'll begin to see quite a number of 'new members' who sign up with a post about how they've been soooo mistreated by a pokersite (& this is usually the only post/posting you'll see from them). Alot of the time (the majority I'm guessing), new member is full of sht & it gets old seeing it over & over again. 'or'.. the 'other' new guy (or new guy's Mom) who then opens up an account to post on first 'new guys' thread (somehow he miraculously joins up & is for some reason 'only' attracted/compelled to post on this thread... ) & 'new guy' is no longer posting. Hmm.....
'gg'

Don't worry they don't stealing your money, only you had to end the investigation and then you will get your money or withdrawal.

Your observations and assumptions are totally off the track. You are making guesses about me that are irrelevant to the issue. I have no affiliation of any kind with OP. The reason of my involvement in this discussion were unthoughtful posts similar to yours. If you took time to read my posts you would have realized why I got myself involved into discussion. The negativity, absurd answers, speculations, and unnecessary accusations without any firm evidence is in my opinion far more worse then just being quiet and staying away from the thread. Trust me there is far less conspiracy in this thread then you may think. If everyone had put more time into thinking throughly about problem OP had and in return gave some useful answers, I probably wouldn't say a word.

There are some people who actually tried to help and who are actually sane enough to get into the healthy discussion and give some real pointers where the OP, FTP support, or me for that matter might have made a mistake. Unfortunately you are not one of them. I urge you to post something relevant, otherwise you are just making meaningless noise.

Relevant -> I read OP's initial post.
Relevant -> I've read many similiar 'first posts' by many new members with claims of how the pokersite is being unfair to them. It gets tiresome.