Drag the Bar/ Black Chip Poker

#1 20th April 2011, 7:54 AM

Anyone get the email today from DTB advertising Black Chip Poker? Seems like a dangerous move to me...any thoughts? I know there are a few DTB coaches here on the forum.

#2 20th April 2011, 8:18 AM

DTB has been a Black Chip affiliate/ supporter long before this poker crisis.

And it will become standard for there to be offers like this considering the situation.

I dont know Black Chip, but I dont see any reason to think it would be dangerous, as DTB would not be promoting any scammy sites.

#3 20th April 2011, 9:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fletchdad

DTB has been a Black Chip affiliate/ supporter long before this poker crisis.

And it will become standard for there to be offers like this considering the situation.

I dont know Black Chip, but I dont see any reason to think it would be dangerous, as DTB would not be promoting any scammy sites.

Maybe I don't understand enough about the situation but surely promoting a site to US players when it's clear this is a legal grey issue is asking for trouble. Who knows what site will be shut down next?

#4 20th April 2011, 9:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerman27

Maybe I don't understand enough about the situation but surely promoting a site to US players when it's clear this is a legal grey issue is asking for trouble. Who knows what site will be shut down next?

you realize cardschat is doing just that and on a much larger scale since CC's revenue is entirely based on being an affiliate, while DTB's revenue is mostly from people paying for coaching directly.

#5 20th April 2011, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BelgoSuisse

you realize cardschat is doing just that and on a much larger scale since CC's revenue is entirely based on being an affiliate, while DTB's revenue is mostly from people paying for coaching directly.

What's your point?

#6 20th April 2011, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerman27

What's your point?

you can't blame DTB on CC for something CC does even worse, imo.

#7 20th April 2011, 12:41 PM

I wasn't blaming anyone - just wondering if it's a wise move to so openly align yourself with a poker room accepting US players right now.

#8 20th April 2011, 9:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerman27

Anyone get the email today from DTB advertising Black Chip Poker? Seems like a dangerous move to me...any thoughts? I know there are a few DTB coaches here on the forum.

I'm Hunter Bick, CEO of DragTheBar.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dangerous," but I'm happy to explain why we promote BlackChip Poker. But first, I want to make sure we are on the same page regarding the legal situation in the US, and what happened on Friday regarding Stars and FTP.

1 - Playing online poker in the US is not crime.
2 - Depositing money onto an online poker site while in the US is not a crime.
3 - Withdrawing money from a poker site while in the US is not a crime.
4 - The legal landscape has not change since Friday. The only thing that has changed is that Full Tilt and PokerStars are no longer open to Americans. I think there has been much confusion as to why this happened, please allow me to explain.

Its important to remember that there are basically 2 different types of charges across 9 total indictments for these companies. There are 8 UIGEA violations of offering "unlawful online gambling" to Americans, and then there is the indictment for bank fraud and money laundering, a much much more serious offense, and one that is far easier to prove AND one where the DOJ has much firmer legal ground.

Many experts think that the UIGEA indictments would not have happened had the bank fraud charge not been there. The reason is that UIGEA does not define what "unlawful internet gambling" is, or what games it includes. Its very debatable whether or not online poker should be included, because poker has never been defined in federal court as a game of luck or a game of skill. That distinction matters a lot, and obviously, there is a very strong argument to be made there. Thats a case the DOJ could actually lose if it were to go trial, and the DOJ does not like issuing indictments for cases it could lose.

The bank fraud charge is a completely different story. Thats an easy one to prove, its a very clear law, and it carries a much harsher penalty. FTP and Stars broke allegedly broke that law by buying an actual bank, bribing the CEO, running their money through it, and disguising the transactions. Thats the accusation, and if its true, its a pretty obvious case of money laundering. We can't be mad at the DOJ for pursuing a bank fraud case. We can be pissed at Stars and FTP for that offense however, its their fault they did it and got caught. In that sense, they screwed their players, not the government. The DOJ doesn't care whether its a poker site or a charitable organization, bank fraud and money laundering are illegal and they are doing their job by pursuing charges there. So this is the crux of the indictments, the UIGEA charges were most likely applied because thats what prosecutors do, they indict for as many things as possible, because it strengthens their position when it comes time to negotiate a settlement.

So thats what happened and why. The question now is what do US players do moving forward. DragTheBar is a training site and people join to make more money playing poker. Part of that includes getting good and accurate information about sites to play at, and the player rewards that accompany those sites. The Merge Network is home to several skin sites, among them Carbon Poker and BlackChip Poker. We've had a very good relationship with BlackChip for over 18 months and also now have an excellent relationship with Carbon. We promote them both. For BlackChip, we have an excellent DragTheBar free membership deal with them and they have always taken good care of our members who play there. We are confident in their management and the management of the Merge Network. The network has been growing over the last 2 years while other networks (like Cake) have been dying.

So we recommend BlackChip to our members because after working with them for 18 months we have a good relationship and as a result, we are able to more closely look after our members and can help them get top-shelf service from BCP (a rarity in the industry these days). There's a BCP representative in our forum that is always accessible to DTB members, and by all accounts, he's very helpful and our members really appreciate that. On top of that, BCP offers the most competitive allowable rakeback on the Merge network, 35% + another 6.5% for the points-to-cash exchange. When you add Free DragTheBar on top of that, its the best deal on the network, and maybe the best deal for US customers right now. We want DTB members to make more money playing poker, so we point them toward good deals and sites we know and have good relationships with.

I hope that clears things up, I'm happy to answer any more questions. I understand that this is a confusing and somewhat scary time right now, and myself and DragTheBar want to help. Its still legal to play poker in the US, but its important to understand a lot of the details in order to feel secure doing it, and its very important to play at sites that don't have a history of cash seizures or financial problems.

-Hunter Bick

#9 20th April 2011, 11:21 PM

Hunter, thank you so much for providing us with what I feel is the most clear and succinct explanation of the situation that I have read to date. Kudos!

#10 21st April 2011, 2:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeachJustice

I'm Hunter Bick, CEO of DragTheBar.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dangerous," but I'm happy to explain why we promote BlackChip Poker. But first, I want to make sure we are on the same page regarding the legal situation in the US, and what happened on Friday regarding Stars and FTP.

1 - Playing online poker in the US is not crime.
2 - Depositing money onto an online poker site while in the US is not a crime.
3 - Withdrawing money from a poker site while in the US is not a crime.
4 - The legal landscape has not change since Friday. The only thing that has changed is that Full Tilt and PokerStars are no longer open to Americans. I think there has been much confusion as to why this happened, please allow me to explain.

Its important to remember that there are basically 2 different types of charges across 9 total indictments for these companies. There are 8 UIGEA violations of offering "unlawful online gambling" to Americans, and then there is the indictment for bank fraud and money laundering, a much much more serious offense, and one that is far easier to prove AND one where the DOJ has much firmer legal ground.

Many experts think that the UIGEA indictments would not have happened had the bank fraud charge not been there. The reason is that UIGEA does not define what "unlawful internet gambling" is, or what games it includes. Its very debatable whether or not online poker should be included, because poker has never been defined in federal court as a game of luck or a game of skill. That distinction matters a lot, and obviously, there is a very strong argument to be made there. Thats a case the DOJ could actually lose if it were to go trial, and the DOJ does not like issuing indictments for cases it could lose.

The bank fraud charge is a completely different story. Thats an easy one to prove, its a very clear law, and it carries a much harsher penalty. FTP and Stars broke allegedly broke that law by buying an actual bank, bribing the CEO, running their money through it, and disguising the transactions. Thats the accusation, and if its true, its a pretty obvious case of money laundering. We can't be mad at the DOJ for pursuing a bank fraud case. We can be pissed at Stars and FTP for that offense however, its their fault they did it and got caught. In that sense, they screwed their players, not the government. The DOJ doesn't care whether its a poker site or a charitable organization, bank fraud and money laundering are illegal and they are doing their job by pursuing charges there. So this is the crux of the indictments, the UIGEA charges were most likely applied because thats what prosecutors do, they indict for as many things as possible, because it strengthens their position when it comes time to negotiate a settlement.

So thats what happened and why. The question now is what do US players do moving forward. DragTheBar is a training site and people join to make more money playing poker. Part of that includes getting good and accurate information about sites to play at, and the player rewards that accompany those sites. The Merge Network is home to several skin sites, among them Carbon Poker and BlackChip Poker. We've had a very good relationship with BlackChip for over 18 months and also now have an excellent relationship with Carbon. We promote them both. For BlackChip, we have an excellent DragTheBar free membership deal with them and they have always taken good care of our members who play there. We are confident in their management and the management of the Merge Network. The network has been growing over the last 2 years while other networks (like Cake) have been dying.

So we recommend BlackChip to our members because after working with them for 18 months we have a good relationship and as a result, we are able to more closely look after our members and can help them get top-shelf service from BCP (a rarity in the industry these days). There's a BCP representative in our forum that is always accessible to DTB members, and by all accounts, he's very helpful and our members really appreciate that. On top of that, BCP offers the most competitive allowable rakeback on the Merge network, 35% + another 6.5% for the points-to-cash exchange. When you add Free DragTheBar on top of that, its the best deal on the network, and maybe the best deal for US customers right now. We want DTB members to make more money playing poker, so we point them toward good deals and sites we know and have good relationships with.

I hope that clears things up, I'm happy to answer any more questions. I understand that this is a confusing and somewhat scary time right now, and myself and DragTheBar want to help. Its still legal to play poker in the US, but its important to understand a lot of the details in order to feel secure doing it, and its very important to play at sites that don't have a history of cash seizures or financial problems.

-Hunter Bick

I don't understand how # 2 & 3 are not illegal .
FTP and PS were forced to do that stuff to keep our business and I don't understand what methods smaller sites can use for deposits and payouts that they couldn't use .
def. not complaining , I happily went along with whatever was needed to deposit and withdraw and will continue to play online till it's impossible .
just trying to understand .

#11 21st April 2011, 2:50 AM

DragTheBar poker charges a monthly membership fee. I never paid one on any other poker sites.

#12 21st April 2011, 4:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beantownmaniac

DragTheBar poker charges a monthly membership fee. I never paid one on any other poker sites.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. DragTheBar is not a poker site. We are an information only training site that releases high end poker training videos every day. For access to that service (in addition to our various free membership options) we charge a monthly fee. We have affiliate relationships with poker sites that we have longstanding relationships with, just like Cardschat and countless other poker-related websites do.

#13 21st April 2011, 4:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymfc

I don't understand how # 2 & 3 are not illegal .
FTP and PS were forced to do that stuff to keep our business and I don't understand what methods smaller sites can use for deposits and payouts that they couldn't use .
def. not complaining , I happily went along with whatever was needed to deposit and withdraw and will continue to play online till it's impossible .
just trying to understand .

Sure no problem.

The simple answer to the first question (re: # 2 and 3) is that there is no law that prohibits US players from playing online poker or gambling online in any capacity. The only exception to this is if you live in the State of Washington, where they recently made it a felony to play online poker. There is no federal law banning it. UIGEA was a bill that only said the processing of "unlawful internet gambling" transactions was illegal for financial institutions, it never mentions playing, depositing, or withdrawing for players.

I'm going to write a long blog that clarifies the difference between what FTP/Stars was doing, and what the remaining sites do. The short version is that they bought a bank with the intent of using EFT transfers to take and send money to americans. This type of transfer requires an electronic code that describes what the transaction is for, and Stars and FTP intentionally mis-labeled their transactions as something non-gambling related. Thats fraud. No other site has ever done that post-2006. The remaining sites like BlackChip Poker and Carbon Poker on the Merge network use e-wallet transfers, checks, western union, and wire transfers. None of those things require electronic classification coding, they are all outside of the ACH processing system. These are the methods that every US-facing site has used since UIGEA, and there has never been a legal issue for any site that has used them.

Hope that helps, Hunter

#14 21st April 2011, 4:53 AM

(EDIT: I just read the last of Hunter's post above about legal electronic transfers. I still don't understand how they don't violate the UIGEA, so I'll leave my post as it is.)

I think by "dangerous" many of us (I assume the OP included) mean: If we US players deposit money on another site, how do we know the DOJ won't also pop them for shifty processing like the big 3? How are these sites that are left not violating the UIGEA in their processing of our funds?

I don't doubt that most of these poker sites that are left are reputable, honest businesses. What I do doubt is that our fricken US gov't sees them that way also. If anyone can guarantee my funds on another site won't ever get seized by the DOJ, I'll gladly be the first to deposit there. But I'm pretty sure none of our present company here can do that until the UIGEA is changed and online poker gets regulated by the US gov't. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

#15 21st April 2011, 6:23 AM

Hunter,

Thank you for the very clear explanation. Its one of the best summaries that I have read anywhere on this situation.

Some people need to realize that this legal "grey area" has been with us since 2006. Nothing new here. The key thing to realize is that we, as players are doing nothing wrong. As for whether or not the DOJ is likely to suddenly move on smaller sites, well, it could happen but I would say its unlikely for all of the reasons that Hunter gave.

You get no guarantee. Don't deposit money that you can't afford to lose. Thats the first rule of responsible gambling in any case.

Personally, I'm putting some money on carbon and giving it a shot. In the unlikely event that it gets jacked, well it won't be the first time I've lost money on speculation, but hey, the stock market is so much more reputable.

#16 21st April 2011, 6:25 AM

Hunter,

Am I correct, that I can get the free DTB training on Carbon also?

Thanks for participating in this thread.

#17 21st April 2011, 7:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alaskabill

Hunter,

Am I correct, that I can get the free DTB training on Carbon also?

Thanks for participating in this thread.

You are correct, go to our home page, click the green button in the top right, and then follow the steps.

#18 21st April 2011, 7:30 AM

Hey guys just wanted to say no problem on the explanation, explaining has helped me understand it better as well. I'm currently in the middle of a very long blog post that goes into detail about everything, and should answer the remaining questions about different funding methods, and what Stars and FTP were doing differently than everyone else, and why that led to the indictments and seizures. Its actually pretty interesting, although its also complicated and boring at times, but my goal is to clear up the situation for as many players as possible. I'll let you guys know when its done and you can go check it out.

#19 21st April 2011, 9:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beantownmaniac

DragTheBar poker charges a monthly membership fee. I never paid one on any other poker sites.

its been answered, but DTB= Training site.

What do you mean by poker sites? Forums? Places like FTP? DTB is not either (although they have a forum as well for posting questions to the coaches, included in the monthly fee, which many training sites have)

A training site offers , well, training. Its like a private school. They cost a tuition. Very normal way to do business.

#20 21st April 2011, 9:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeachJustice

I'm Hunter Bick, CEO of DragTheBar.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dangerous," but I'm happy to explain why we promote BlackChip Poker. But first, I want to make sure we are on the same page regarding the legal situation in the US, and what happened on Friday regarding Stars and FTP.

1 - Playing online poker in the US is not crime.
2 - Depositing money onto an online poker site while in the US is not a crime.
3 - Withdrawing money from a poker site while in the US is not a crime.
4 - The legal landscape has not change since Friday. The only thing that has changed is that Full Tilt and PokerStars are no longer open to Americans. I think there has been much confusion as to why this happened, please allow me to explain.

Its important to remember that there are basically 2 different types of charges across 9 total indictments for these companies. There are 8 UIGEA violations of offering "unlawful online gambling" to Americans, and then there is the indictment for bank fraud and money laundering, a much much more serious offense, and one that is far easier to prove AND one where the DOJ has much firmer legal ground.

Many experts think that the UIGEA indictments would not have happened had the bank fraud charge not been there. The reason is that UIGEA does not define what "unlawful internet gambling" is, or what games it includes. Its very debatable whether or not online poker should be included, because poker has never been defined in federal court as a game of luck or a game of skill. That distinction matters a lot, and obviously, there is a very strong argument to be made there. Thats a case the DOJ could actually lose if it were to go trial, and the DOJ does not like issuing indictments for cases it could lose.

The bank fraud charge is a completely different story. Thats an easy one to prove, its a very clear law, and it carries a much harsher penalty. FTP and Stars broke allegedly broke that law by buying an actual bank, bribing the CEO, running their money through it, and disguising the transactions. Thats the accusation, and if its true, its a pretty obvious case of money laundering. We can't be mad at the DOJ for pursuing a bank fraud case. We can be pissed at Stars and FTP for that offense however, its their fault they did it and got caught. In that sense, they screwed their players, not the government. The DOJ doesn't care whether its a poker site or a charitable organization, bank fraud and money laundering are illegal and they are doing their job by pursuing charges there. So this is the crux of the indictments, the UIGEA charges were most likely applied because thats what prosecutors do, they indict for as many things as possible, because it strengthens their position when it comes time to negotiate a settlement.

So thats what happened and why. The question now is what do US players do moving forward. DragTheBar is a training site and people join to make more money playing poker. Part of that includes getting good and accurate information about sites to play at, and the player rewards that accompany those sites. The Merge Network is home to several skin sites, among them Carbon Poker and BlackChip Poker. We've had a very good relationship with BlackChip for over 18 months and also now have an excellent relationship with Carbon. We promote them both. For BlackChip, we have an excellent DragTheBar free membership deal with them and they have always taken good care of our members who play there. We are confident in their management and the management of the Merge Network. The network has been growing over the last 2 years while other networks (like Cake) have been dying.

So we recommend BlackChip to our members because after working with them for 18 months we have a good relationship and as a result, we are able to more closely look after our members and can help them get top-shelf service from BCP (a rarity in the industry these days). There's a BCP representative in our forum that is always accessible to DTB members, and by all accounts, he's very helpful and our members really appreciate that. On top of that, BCP offers the most competitive allowable rakeback on the Merge network, 35% + another 6.5% for the points-to-cash exchange. When you add Free DragTheBar on top of that, its the best deal on the network, and maybe the best deal for US customers right now. We want DTB members to make more money playing poker, so we point them toward good deals and sites we know and have good relationships with.

I hope that clears things up, I'm happy to answer any more questions. I understand that this is a confusing and somewhat scary time right now, and myself and DragTheBar want to help. Its still legal to play poker in the US, but its important to understand a lot of the details in order to feel secure doing it, and its very important to play at sites that don't have a history of cash seizures or financial problems.

-Hunter Bick

Hi Hunter, thanks for your post.

Can I begin by saying that my original post was in no way meant to be a WTF are DTB doing??...I understand that as reputable company yourself you would in no way risk your integrity but associating with a company operating illegally. My OP was meant more as 'how' can DTB do this? As I explained in subsequent posts my understanding of the whole legality of online poker in the states is far from complete but I was led to believe that it was not possible for US citizens to deposit funds on an online poker site in any legal way. Your in-depth reply (which I thank you for) has gone some way to clear it up though I think I still need to read up some more. I look forward to your blog and thanks for taking the time to post on Cardschat. I'm sure a lot of CCers found it useful.

#21 21st April 2011, 3:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeachJustice

I'm not sure what you mean by this. DragTheBar is not a poker site. We are an information only training site that releases high end poker training videos every day. For access to that service (in addition to our various free membership options) we charge a monthly fee. We have affiliate relationships with poker sites that we have longstanding relationships with, just like Cardschat and countless other poker-related websites do.

My apologies, I thought DagTheBar was a poker site. From what you're saying, there are no laws prohibiting internet poker so depositing into these sites isn't illegal? Also, I thought a court somewhere in the U.S. recently said poker was a game of skill? I just read where in Sweden I believe, I think it was the High court there that said tournament poker was a game of skill, but cash games (ring games), were a game of chance.Here is a link to that story which explains their ruling.

http://www.coinflip.com/news/swedish...kill-game.html

#22 21st April 2011, 5:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beantownmaniac

My apologies, I thought DagTheBar was a poker site. From what you're saying, there are no laws prohibiting internet poker so depositing into these sites isn't illegal? Also, I thought a court somewhere in the U.S. recently said poker was a game of skill? I just read where in Sweden I believe, I think it was the High court there that said tournament poker was a game of skill, but cash games (ring games), were a game of chance.Here is a link to that story which explains their ruling.

http://www.coinflip.com/news/swedish...kill-game.html

No problem, glad you checked back so we could clear that. That's correct, there are zero laws in the US that prohibit playing online poker.

The court you read about was a state court, in the US, there is federal court, which is the US government and the rulings apply to all 50 states. But each state also has their own court system, and rulings in the state courts only apply that state. Some states are pushing for regulated legal poker, others are against it, and one state has made it illegal to play.

#23 21st April 2011, 5:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerman27

Hi Hunter, thanks for your post.

Can I begin by saying that my original post was in no way meant to be a WTF are DTB doing??...I understand that as reputable company yourself you would in no way risk your integrity but associating with a company operating illegally. My OP was meant more as 'how' can DTB do this? As I explained in subsequent posts my understanding of the whole legality of online poker in the states is far from complete but I was led to believe that it was not possible for US citizens to deposit funds on an online poker site in any legal way. Your in-depth reply (which I thank you for) has gone some way to clear it up though I think I still need to read up some more. I look forward to your blog and thanks for taking the time to post on Cardschat. I'm sure a lot of CCers found it useful.

No problem man, and it was clear to me from your subsequent posts that you were just looking for info and that it was not meant to be negative, so no worries at all. Glad I could help it up somewhat, its a confusing situation for Americans, so I can only imagine how confusing it is for non-americans who have to learn about how the details of our government and legal system work.

#24 22nd April 2011, 7:29 AM

Hey guys, my full writeup is here. Hopefully it helps clear some stuff up.

-Hunter

http://www.dragthebar.com/poker-blog...jump-post-1263

#25 22nd April 2011, 9:55 AM

Hunter,

Fantastic article. Thank you very much for the effort that you have put into this.

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