Do poker sites rig the game?

Do you think poker sites rig the cash game table to increase their rake? I never thought about this untill the other day. Playing .10/.25 tables, I lost $20 in two hands. First hand, I limped in with pocket 4's and caught trips on a flop of 4c 7s 9d. With 4 guys in the hand, I bet small and sure enough got called by 3 guys. Caught a full house on the turn so move all in, and got called by the short stack. He turned over 77 for a higher full house.
Second hand, I limped in with A10 in first position, flop came Ac Ad 8d. With a flush draw on the board, i bet the pot and got re-raised all-in by the button. Figuring he had A-rag, I called and he turned over A8.
I was almost positive I had both hands won.
What do u guys think?

2 beats, one in which you were the dog from the start, certainly don't constitute evidence of rigging. If you suspect rigging look at a few hand histories, and don't forget those where YOU won!

I'm much more concerned about collusion among players which would be so easy with IM clients or just chatting over the phone. But I don't see a .25 limit game as a place for that.

BTW with 2 aces on the board and a pre-flop call of a limp-in in by the button, I'd put the all-in bettor on A-rag too! Just bad luck the rag was also paired.

Actually, the most suspicious thing about online poker is the number of hands which showdown to two or more big hands. I'm not saying that couldn't just be the luck of the draw. I'm simply playing devil's advocate here and offering that when you see pocket fours, sevens, and nines dealt in the same hand, and the flop comes 4 7 9 with blanks on the turn & river, it makes you wonder. I've played online poker for about two years now on an almost-daily basis, and I've seen literally tens of thousands of hands dealt. The frequency with which these "big action" hands occur sometimes strikes me as a bit questionable. All the card room would have to do is artificially insert a pre-set "rake hand" once an hour at each real money ring game table to create a huge pop in their take for the day. Again, not saying they do, but...

When you're not winning, definately rigged.

Best. Explaination. Ever. Kudos rob.

They aren't rigged. Yet it is only #'d generated. Alot of sites in general have the RNG but those #'s that are generated don't have the odds or %'s implicated. Point in hand would be that a Royal Flush shows up at least once on most every site every day. Yet that Slot machines who use the same principles as RNG don't have the jackpot coming up every single day. However to combat that, these sites have numerous hands played constantly. So compared to say "live" games, hands are played much faster online compared to live. So 1 "live" hand played is compared to 3-6 online hands played.

As for those hands played. You need to think of the possiblities of what the other players may have. Remembering that 1st you limped in with 4's, based apon position, which I don't know. They should have been folded in early position. 2nd you have to read the board and take all possibilities and hands. For all you know there could have been 2 others that also had a set never mind 1. You are holding the smallest set. You got called was another thing. So lets say 2 had the sets while the 3rd guy was chasing a straight. Always read the board and try to figure out what is the best hands that can come out on the flop.

Hand #2 You had ace 10, no problem. Yet it didn't occur to you that your opponent may have had ace king, ace queen, ace jack, or even pocket 8's?? You limped in early position which makes you have to react 1st. You did well though going for info with the bet pot, his re-raise should have been some indicator.

Basically you just need to read the board and your opponets more effeciently and you should do well.

At most poker rooms the rake is 5%. In a .10/.25 table it is never no more then a $1 no matter how big the pot gets so they have no reason to rig a game. Sometimes I feel the same way also when I lose hand after hand. Alot of these kids in their 20's don't think anything of loseing $25 a night they are playing for fun so hang in their in the long run you will bust them. Watch how they play, if they are playing loose and aggresive you have to play tight, unless you have a moster hand that can't be beat let them bet. good luck

Since I don't know what position you played the 4s from I won't comment on it.

However, A10 UTG and you limp in????

Why?

Ok granted I am a tight player. But, I don't you are going to find to many people who suggest you should limp in with A10 UTG.

Yes you don't want to become predictable and you should limp in once in a while to keep the other players off step from reading you.

But, UTG seems like a good place to limp in with a real hand and then work from there.

Just my opinion here. I am a tight players so maybe it is just a difference in styles.

So youre saying that since there is a max rake, there is no reason to rig a table? Hmmmm... would a poker site rather have 100 raked hands of $1, or 100 raked hands averaging 15 cents? Common sense tels you that they DO have reason to rig a game.

I think it might be rigged. I either have nothing until the river or am winning till the river and everything changes on that last card.

But it could just be the randomness is just EVIL!!!!!!

Absolutely they do! It is definatly rigged. I mean think about it. You own a legitimate company that enjoys the largest boom in internet history. Your servers spin, game after game, while you have very little overhead, except customer service a few Servers, etc. Every day millions of dollars are dumped in your pockets.

You bring the compnay public it immediately becomes one of the biggest ever seen.
Money and women hand over fist!

What would you do? Rig the game of course. Sqeeze an extra quarter out of the rake, and risk it all! Flip the bad beat swithc on folks that withdraw 100 bucks!

Just kidding. generally things appear more anomolous online because you see a greater volume of hands per hour. With 30,000 players, at that many tables A royal should hit once a day.

Bill

Sometimes i really wonder..my friend build those tables and he says they don't, but i don't know actually..

Like most casinos...they make enough as it is.

It is in their best interest NOT to rig the games.

Now, with Party Poker going on the stock exchange they will be watched from all angles....

So, the answer is definitely NO.

i am a firm believer that the sights have bots playing in their games. but they play perfect poker. no bluffs. but like the idiot I am i still keep playin. lol

Yikes...what a topic for a first post. This could get long winded, but first off...I play an average of 4 multis a day and about 8 rs total. Have won, and been to more than my share of final tables, and finished high in several of the 160 buy in weekday tourneys. I don't "forget" the beats I have profited on, and in live poker it happens...nature of the game. With that being said, I don't think you could outright rig the game, to many variables. But, I think the hands are enhanced to promote betting to either thin out a tourney or encourage action at cash games. The comment about Big Time Casinos not having to cheat you is true, they don't have to..but increase play and profits?? Damn right!! Slot machines went from having the handles locked and playing credits unless you cashed out, to no coins coming out at all, just credits. They didn't do this to save money on paying change girls, it probably increased play by 40 percent, you can press that button a lot of times in an hour.

Other questions I have had are, why does almost every multi on party poker have almost exactly half of the people gone at the first break. Almost 90 percent of them are within 10 of being exactly half! Why not 40 percent, or 65 percent?? As for seeing more hands, that is true to a point. A recent live event I played had a machine shuffling one deck while one was being dealt, not that many less an hour than online.

Rarely play cash games, always leery of the juiced flops etc.. But to clear my bonus needed to play 700 hands. Always was so up and down in 2/4, decided to play 25 nl, blinds are small so you can be patient. In one 150 hand session, saw 3 sets of quads ( 2 0f them where mine..1 flopped) and a straight flush. Sorry, but thats a bit much. ended the session up 4.50..lol. I don't think they want to cheat you, but keep you at the table, if you sit in and one player just kills everyone, or a bot is present..you will go away, less rake. they don't care who wins, just so everyone is playing.

Now before I take a beating, I still play alot online, but to say it is all random and they have never , nor could they ever, have any influence over the games is a little naive. Just my opinion.............feel free to beat down my posts, call me a disgruntled loser, etc..

Lets see, that accounts for maybe 3 or 4 of the poker sites out there. Most likely, they wouldnt rig the games. Now look past the few sites that you play on and consider the smaller ones. Some do a ton of advertising and only get a few players (Poker Host for example). They have a base of maybe 100 players who stay and play all the time, while most just come and go when they see that their program is sub-par. As Pokerhost, or a similar site, you have two choices: Continue to either make a very very small profit, or generate a few rigged hands every once in a while in order to double or triple your profits with 99% of the players not complaining because they believe that poker websites can do no wrong and are under some kind of internet law (big mistake). My point? Some sites have a LOT more to gain with almost nothing to lose than the one or 2 big ones that you may play at.

I've been playing live poker lately and have seen many of the same bad beats in person as I've seen online - so don't blame that on online poker.

Every site is a random number (card) site and they have that random software checked periodically by unbiased outsiders so they say. If you have ever run a random number wheel program - say with just 15 numbers, you'll see certain numbers come up more than others. It takes a while for that random number wheel to even out. They have random number software online free and you give it a try.

Another thing you might try for fun is write down every card that comes out during say 100 hands - then tally up what cards come out the most. You can even see what comes out on the turn most and the river most. I've done it and its quite interesting.

Its just common sense that they aren't going to risk millions of dollars for another .10 or .15 cents per rake. However, as with anything, you aren't going to convince those that belive there are underhanded dealings, bots, or "hot" hands, that they don't exist. Conspiracy theorists always stick by their conspiracies and don't let pesky things like common sense or fact get in the way of a good story.

Ok another probability.. Back to the Royal Flush.. How many times does the Royal Flush come up on a Video Poker Machine that can generate hands, I would say just as 1 round of 10 people playing at the same online hold-em ?

Yet that the Royal Flush comes up at least once a day on the online hold-em but hardly ever comes up on a video poker machine. Before it is said, I agree that the video poker machine takes a rake but remember that somehow it knows the odds and %'s of certain hands coming up while online sites have those same hands coming up way more often.

Video poker machines are probably the best slot bet in vegas - so if you like the slots, play those. I'm not sure if the casinos can fix them like the regular slots, but I think they are quite different than online poker sites. Not sure, anyone?? who knows the ins and outs of video poker slots? Bill???

Played alot of slots in vegas, used to be fun and sometimes profitable. But since they went to no coins, only a piece of paper, I have no interest in sitting a just pushing a button over and over. Never did real well on poker machines, but,people who know more than me, suggest that they are the best bet for machines. However, I recently saw an episode of breaking vegas, where a guy from the Gaming authority discovered a gaff that was installed in certain poker machines to block a royal. He went on to insert gaffs of his own in slots and him and a buddy was using them as a personal ATM. They got greedy, went to Atlantic city, and one played keno with and ear piece in, and got instructions from the one in the hotel room whatching the results on tv, it took him about six trys, and he patterned the RNG, and they won. But got caught, and sent down.So much for being random. A real joke whatching casino security jump on this guy when he won. Its almost hard for them not to say, we know you cheated, because nobody is supposed to win!!

if you play slots in vegas, play the 97 percent paybacks , and play the limit. Circus Circus had some real loose ones at one time, but haven't been for 2 yrs.

Hi - Yes, the one-armed bandits have fallen to the wayside. I don't care for the new slots much either. I've never been a slot person anyway though.

With all the cameras around casinos, I can't imagine anyone getting away with something for very long.

While playing craps one day in Vegas, the pit boss didn't like that I was still on the dice and came in and started harrassing people to "cool" me off. It worked! but not after a couple guys tipped me for making them money. If you like craps, the Californian used to be a great place to play - fun and good tables.

Used to play craps alot, had the very same thing happen at a local boat. Had rolled for over and hour!! They had to add a box man to payout. He picked up my dice and put them in the tray with the others, one of the guys at the table called him on it, and he said..oh...thought you were out..then tried to give me a differant set, the guy called him on that too!! next roll...ypu guessed it..sevened out. Bunch of low class idiot locals. Where is the Californian??

Sounds like the table I was at. The Californian is down town in Vegas. Its the Hawaiian hangout and lots of fun guys and ladies play there.

Twizzy, imagine you sit down and deal a few million 5 card hands. You are almost assured one or more will be a Royal Flush. That is why poker sites have a Royal Flush hit so often, the sheer number of hands dealt. A video poker machine can't get near the number of hands out in one day as an entire gaming site can in a single hour. They are literally dealing to hundreds of people at once, a multitude of hands per hour. That analogy is comparing apples and oranges.

Actually you are comparing apples to oranges. I did go and read my post and can see where you mis-read based apon my own typo. I am comparing apples to apples.. I was comparing 1 Video Poker Machine to 1 Table of 10 Players playing hold-em.

Not 1 Video Poker Machine compared to 1 Complete poker website with multiple tables of Hold-em.

Now if you wish to do that we can now add the same # of video poker machines to equal that of the same # of tables playing hold-em on a poker website. Then you may compare the # of hands that come out on both variables, but yet I would still bet the farm that the Royal Flush would hardly come out on those video machines compared to a Poker website.

Next time if I were you, I would get the variables correct before stepping on your gold plated soapbox.

First, its a platinum throne, not a gold-plated soapbox. Second, if you know there was a typo and the thread didn't read correctly, how do you justify jumping my ass? I didn't insult you at all, but invariably here you come barking in my direction.

Last, your comparison is so wrong, on so many levels, I'm not even going to bother to reply other than to say simply, there are enough hands dealt/day on online poker sites to easily justify a Royal Flush that often. Period.

if you know there was a typo and the thread didn't read correctly, how do you justify jumping my ass?

Ok I will fix the typo but yet it will be unnoticable. Then again you jumped 1st by saying "apples to oranges". I just happen to jump more abruptly than you, mine was more noticable.

I didn't insult you at all, but invariably here you come barking in my direction.
I didn't insult you either.

Last, your comparison is so wrong, on so many levels, I'm not even going to bother to reply other than to say simply, there are enough hands dealt/day on online poker sites to easily justify a Royal Flush that often. Period.

LOL this is funny. Why is it wrong? Cause you say so??? So we are supposed to believe you are right because you have the platinum throne??

See again you keep adding more variables to the picture. I will fix the typo to variably keep it simple. 1 Poker Machine dealing 1 complete hand vs 1 Poker table of 10 players gettting the possibilites of getting non-completed hands to 10 completed hands.

1st lets start with 1 hand of video poker=5 cards.. Minimum one can get
1 hand of hold-em =20 cards and just the BB wins cause everyone folds(non-completed hands by the way).

So on a guesstimate that hand of video poker was dealt faster and over with then the 10 hands of hold-em. Without further variables to see if the poker player makes a decision compared to the 10 players making a decision.

Then last of all.. You haven't been an online player for how long?? Just recently got back to playing online didn't you but odd on how all of a sudden that you are so right on so many levels?? Hmmmmm.. makes one wonder that stature of your throne.

Twizzy - Diablo disagrees with most everything I say too - but that doesn't make him right. I know that and don't let it get under my skin. I think its a personality fault of his or his gender. ROFLMAO

Like Diablo says - "those who can do, those who can't teach" - he's a teacher, get it?? LOL (insert humor, just in case its taken wrong).

I simply stated that you were comparing apples to oranges and you're the one that got offended. How dare I say your comparison was wrong. Then you threw in the barb about my "gold plated soapbox."

It matters not that I am a live player rather than an online player. What difference would that make at all? Your analogy makes no sense, mainly because your grammar sucks and I can't understand what point you're making. It is a rambling mess and I would venture to say I'm not the only one that can't make sense of it. Leave out all the odd examples and numbers you threw in and tell me what the actual point you were trying to make is, and I will form a response. I can't respond to the above post because it makes no sense.

mainly because your grammar sucks and I can't understand what point you're making. It is a rambling mess and I would venture to say I'm not the only one that can't make sense of it.

Wondering when this pop shot would come out. I admit it sucks then again even some of the best business men in this world have no clue about english either.
What I did was paste and copy from your post. Made certain points of yours in bold and responded to those bold posts. Yet what seems just as odd is that assuming that Michele understood partial or most of my post.

Like I said I seen my typo and actually it won't let me fix the typo.

So instead of worrying about a fixation on my typo I have allready corrected it by saying again for the 3rd time. 1 Hand of Video Poker Vs 1 Round of hold-em with 10 players on 1 table.

OK, one hand of video poker and one 10 handed ring of holdem dealt. What are you proving? This is laughable.

Anyone who thinks online poker is rigged should have listened to the WSOP broadcast last night/this morning. For the first 6 hours or so I don't think there was a big hand where the underdog didn't catch to win or some generally crazy stuff happened. Examples - AA vs. KK second hand (!), K on flop, AA makes runner runner flush, AQ vs. A7, flop 77x, AQ vs TT, Q on flop, TT rivers a flush, AJ vs TT, AJ makes a wheel on the turn, and so on...

Just goes to show the crazy stuff you see in online poker can and does happen "in real life".

Twizzybop...why is it so hard for you to comprehend that a poker site that deals millions of hands a day will hit a Royal Flush often? That was my only point. Your comparison of video poker machines and 10 handed ring games doesn't make what I said even the slightest bit wrong.

If you want to compare video poker to live cards or online hands, it would have to be put in context. A hold-em hand- before you select your five playable cards- has 7 possible cards to be played. You take 5 of those and make a hand. To compare the two (video poker and online hold-em) you would have to take completed hands. Your comparison used the number 20, which is everyone at the 10 handed table folding to the big blind without there even being a flop dealt. That leaves the hold-em table in your comparison unable to even make a single 5 card hand. Additionally, in hold-em you have two extra cards from which to form your hand because you only use 5 of the 7 available cards. That's why your comparison is akin to apples and oranges. You shouldn't believe it simply because I say so, you should belive it because common sense says so.

Mmmmm actually it does make it wrong cause you were and still are adding more variables while I kept it simple.

Your comparison used the number 20, which is everyone at the 10 handed table folding to the big blind without there even being a flop dealt. That leaves the hold-em table in your comparison unable to even make a single 5 card hand.

Geee! See what simplicity will actually do for you? I haven't even gone into the mathematical and algebra part of it all.


But wait there is more.
Additionally, in hold-em you have two extra cards from which to form your hand because you only use 5 of the 7 available cards. That's why your comparison is akin to apples and oranges. You shouldn't believe it simply because I say so, you should belive it because common sense says so.
Since you now have added another variable, lets add another to the 5 card video poker machine and draw just 1 card.

This is going to be interesting. However I will keep it simple.
30% that an Ace will fall on the flop in hold-em. That card might be part of the flush.
Now depending on how many players actually play, keeping it simple again 2. Rest had folded and left the SB and the BB to fend for themselves. Leaves 8 Unknown(incomplete hands). Correct me here cause I can't recall but I think it is 40% that someone on the table was dealt an ace. For giggles lets keep it simple and make it one of the blinds. So now we have Ace+Ace+7X/31=Y(royal flush). Considering though you won't know what X is until both players turn over cards and both go all the way to the river.

Yet lets add another variable considering you like to add variables.
Since an ace has hit the flop, lets say it is low limit table(yeah yeah I know more than 2 players will be in the hand). Keep it simple, The other player has Queen,6 suited(clubs).That ace that feel on the table is indeed a club, eliminates the 1st player from the royal then. Most higher limit tables most nobody would call with Queen,6 suited.

So based apon even on that variable, your royal flush should be hit way more often on low limit than high limit.(yet that doesn't happen) The higher limit tables seem to hit it more often then not then a low limit.


Now if you wish me to keep on going I can? Cause video poker, I completed hand can be done in less than 3 seconds. Yet that variable on video poker is done by the 1st 5 seen cards, not done by the unseen in hold-em.

Yes my grammer my be off but my math skills are very very very good. Probably my biggest downfall in this game because I can calculate %, odds, remember #'s like no tommorow.