Action hands

There have been a number of threads regarding rigged or fixed sites, just thought I'd share a hand I played over the weekend. Was playing the .25/.50 limit holdem on Ultimatebet. In first position have A-J suited so I raise. Three other players each raise, so I call the .75 to see the flop. Flop comes K-Q-T rainbow so I've flopped the nut straight. I bet, same 3 players each raise. Hand goes on like this through the turn and river (8-2, no flush possibilities). Worst I can do is tie so I push the .50, get raised 3 times again, call. I turn nut straight, other 3 players have sets of Q, K, T respectively - I take down $20 pot. Might not be rigged but hands like this don't happen often in live games...

Yeah its a little fishy but they say its all random. Gotta be by law.

Yes there are always good hands good run and bad hands and bad runs part of the game. I am a skeptic myself though until the games are legal and properly regulated I don't suppose I will ever fully trust the legitimacy of the sites and I love playing! pretty crazy huh. Probably has something to do with me having long ago made more than I initialy put in. Which means there is no real financial risk to me other wise I would probably still be a freeroller I just can't help but think when I get cornholed with regularity on enormous longshots at one site way more than another that something stinks. Have we forgotten that poker throughout history has attracted mostly criminals? Anyways I love online poker and love to play but won't be making the 4 and 5 figure deposits till the whole industry is properly regulated. Which is why I like Party so much now public company just makes me feel better.

With that company going public (PartyPoker) there will be oversight out the arse as far as the involvement of the site in spiking the cards for maximum rake, using bots to play in hands, or other unsavory methods of producing revenue.

Logically speaking, they couldn't "all of a sudden" stop using these methods just to go public, because it would cause a drop in revenue and lower the stock price immediately after investors saw a sudden drop in income generated from the period before them going public, to just after. It would simply look too fishy. They can't stop if they have already started, and with them being a gambling site and already under scrutiny, they can't go public and risk getting caught doing anything like that, so the only conclusion is to assume that they were on the up and up from the beginning.

Wow, if you trust a site that has NO regulations where you have NO protection by ANY laws, you are very simple minded and will probably get taken for all your money. Dont just assume that is is 'random' and dont assume that it is under any law because it is not.

I dont know for sure if its rigged, but if it is, they have a lot to gain through doing it.

Good point...LOL if you think just because a company is now "public" - its now a reputable company, where were you in early 2000?? Enron, Worldcom, Veritcal Net, and the myriad of other publicly traded companies that cooked the books and made very bad business decisions and were hyped anyway as great companies.

You watch, Party Poker will come out with a very high IPO price because of lots of hype, not because its a well run organization.

Lol, I agree. I bet the Government of Gibraltor will really crack down on them. What a joke.

Its safe to say that I could go to Costa Rica tommorrow, cut them in on the deal and have my liscense by noon. I think I will become a Doctor!!...Fully accredited by Eds School Of Medicine, Managua Nicaragua .investors want profits!!, They could care less what you are doing. And take a chance on losing players??, I could have solid proof, complete with video, taped conversations, caught red handed rigging of Party Poker, and maybe 5 out of 50,000 would quit playing there!! I do play about 8 hrs a day, and have won ,sometimes, ..alot. But still seems a little phony. and sure as hell not gonna go around defending the sites about how fair they are.

I figured on someone pointing out that very valid point Michele, however, my statement was contingient on the "nature" of a business profitting from gambling. It will most assuredly be held to a more strict standard as it pertains to economic matters. It will be regulated from outside not inside.

Not that you can't get taken for a ride, and not that I have "blind faith" in any company, but they just stand to lose so much more than they stand to win. Its way to much -EV.

Standards by who?? In a recent article I read about the owners of Party, It was said that they made thier initial money from porn. His daughter followed the same path. And the US government has said if they come back to the US, they will be arrested. Now, have never had a problem getting paid from them, and feel that it is probably safe. But to start saying its tightly regulated and whatched closely by some agency, is absurd.

Now that the company has gone public, they will be monitored, you can bet on that. And as far as standards, I wasn't refering to moral standards smartguy, who cares if the guy was into porn or not? I was refering to the standard that the company will have to be held to as far as business paractices now that it is a publicly traded entity especially since it is a gambling site. Re-read my post.

I read your post .smartguy! You are so smart, who regulates these sites?? Who checks the RNG?? Your the one throwing around how tightly they are gonna be regulated. I will tell you one thing, you have a beef about not getting paid, you have to go to Gibraltor to sue or try to file a complaint. Try calling the US gambling commision, or any other Gaming Authority, they will tell you,you are out of luck. Everyone knows how well regulated these sites are, but nobody can tell you who is regulating for sure. I play online about 8 hrs a day, and will continue to when I don't play live. And I am sure everything is up an up, and these sites would never manipulate anything in anyway, ever ever. And anyone that even questions that is crazy!! And you are not as nearly as smart as the people that tell you differantly. So, never question it, or you will be beaten down when they explain how wrong you are, even though the responses they give have no more validity or proof than yours.

Oh, and internet porn is illegal. But I am sure the owner of Party would never do anything illegal again, when it comes to internet gambling.

I´ve always had the same doubt, but I now think that it is random, because if not they could get in big trouble. Who knows this will always be an issue.

This thread kind of went into an area I hadn't intended, I was just showing the types of hands you see online. Just knowing that these "action hands" appear rather often - and being prepared for it was the gist of my post.

Whenever I get the big pocket pair, I always expect another pair or more to be around the board so I play accordingly...

Nobody can say for sure either way, but after playing day after day. I see things that just don't seem real. I have been on both sides, and never blame a bad call on the site. But they are not gonna get in big trouble from anyone. There is no internet gaming police!! I do think it is juiced to promote action, but thats just my opinion and a few others. Twice, when the action got hot at a wpt table, I heard one of the pros, one Daniel N, say...this looks like online poker. He was referring to the board and 3 people with a piece of it betting big. As far as not getting someones 50 cents, look at it as a whole, if juicing the flops gets people to spend say a buck more an hour, just a buck, not even noticable, lets see...Party has about 40,000 players..take that times lets just say 10 hrs a day...hmmm....400,000 a day...2.8 million more a week. That is if it goes on. Just my opinion.

Even though that is a big number, it is relatively small in the grand scheme of things. How much does Party have to lose if something like this were to surface? A hell of a lot more than 400K/day. I just don't see them being able to do it without widespread knowledge of it happening, and someone blowing the whistle. It has yet to be proven at any site, much less one of the super-size sites like PP.

The idea that people or businesses would not do something because they have a lot to lose usually doesn't stop them. I am reminded of Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton, Enron, Michael Milken, Ivan Boesky, Michael Jackson, O.J. Simpson ... lol

AMEN I think sometimes people forget that there are BAD buisness men out there

The software at Party Poker is tested and certified by iTech Labs Australia. Certification contigent apon the following requirements:
Reliable and resilient gaming system Guaranteed minimum Return To Player (RTP) Game outcome solely depends on the certified Random Number Generator (RNG) Clear and consistent game rules with detailed information on game behaviour, how to play, pay tables, special features etc. Game screen and game artwork do not confuse players Game screens give sufficient information about player's current account balance, bet amount, win amount, progress of the game and game outcome The gaming system logs all gaming events so that queries from players can be answered correctly and promptly. There is effective collusion and fraud prevention mechanisms in multi-player systems Certified casino software is monitored for unauthorised changes
I can.
That's true. I'm smarter. He still won't listen to me! lol!

Know where your going IrishDave,it's just funny how the cards will turn up. Playing one night and I had 4-4's and called an all in bet showing on board was 2-4's 2-5's and a A.Knew it was mine I figured wrong,thought what's the odds of 2-4 of a kind. Think it's just how they hit.

I am a frequent poster to Cardschat.com, the fastest growing poker related forum on the web, and I am impressed with your certification process. I have a question. Is the frequency of auditiong and certification with your software determined by the gaming site, or must it be random and updated regulary to retain it? What prevents a poker room, like Party Poker, from gaining certification once and then using your name to promote their site with no required additional testing?
Sincerely,
-***


Hi ***,
Thanks for your enquiry. In order for the casino operators to keep their certification, every major change of the systems certified, must be tested by us. All changes made to the software are verified at the time of the next round of testing.
Hope this answers your question.
Regards,
Kiren Sreekumar
Principal Consultant
kiren@itechlabs.com.au
www.itechlabs.com.au

So, there is someone who can tell you who regulates them...amazing. And yes, I wil admit, four dogs is a brilliant man in some areas, much like most savants. JK

So, there is someone who can tell you who regulates them...amazing. And yes, I wil admit, four dogs is a brilliant man in some areas, much like most savants. JK

Well, thanks Karen. Just got a few questions for you. Most I can answer for you. Do you have the authority to stop any online gaming site from practices you deem unlawful under your criteria???...less see...No?? Is there an internet gaming authority that would take action against any sites for unethical pratices you may find??...hmm...No?? and if I wanted to start my own independant testing lab for rngs, would it take more than setting up a corp., some business cards, and maybe a phone and office??...hmm..Nope??

And one last question and I will let you get back to overseeing your strict criteria. This RTP or minimum return to players, how, if its so random, can any site guarantee any player any kind of return on anything?? if any sites software has a min. return built into it, that would only validate what many people including myself have wondered. The site does have a measure of control over the games, and the rng just doesn't go off on its own spitting out hand after hand of cards so random that it might deal a hand to the waitress.

Those are good questions, why don't you ask her yourself, instead living in a paranoia induced fear of on-line gaming sites. Or is it more comforting to live in ignorence, and blame your dwindling bank roll on shady software and phantom action hands. In the Turning Stone Tournament in 2004, Phil Ivey was dealt the identical hand of 9-8 6 times in 22 hands in heads up action against John DiAgostino. The near impossibility of this occurance was obscured by the mediocrity of the hand. If it had been A-A and on-line it would unfortunately reak if ill intent.
As for the RTP, your mistaking it for the RNG random number generator. The RTP is the minimum return to players in the form of winnings as a percentage of all bets made. There is nothing random about it. It is a fixed minimum ratio, in this case, no less than 87.5% of the total of all bets made. How do I know this? I bother to ask! I doubt there's much I can say to disabuse you of your ill informed and firmly entrenched
notions, but I do have some hope for Irish Dave.

hmmmmm there is an RTP for poker sites? Wonder how that is supposed to work. I know that video poker and slot machines have a siliar value they have to meet as far as how much of every dollar the player must win back.... If the sites have no interest in the games other than the rake why would such a number be necessary? I must be missing something....

I didn't say it was used for poker. The the RTP was refered to in iTechs description of their certification process. Typically it applies to fixed odds gaming machines and I noted the minimum allowable percentage only in order to dispell RK9's belief that they are random. Many gaming sites offer games such as video poker and roullette where I presume The RTP would be used. However, I would assume that if the rake exheeded the allowable RTP it would be subject to the same standards. That would be one heck of a rake though.

yeah.... I must be thinking too hard

I could really care less if you think I am just a paranoid idiot. I have stated that I play online everyday about 8 hours, and have done quite well. I don't play freerolls, and if I did, I wouldn't whine about it being fixed if I didn't make it to the final table for my 15 bucks. I have seen RNGs be manipulated in slots and video poker. Casinos and online gaming are famous for talking out of both sides of thier mouths. Casinos will tell you that slots are all random, one machine could hit a jackpot 4 times in 4 spins or not hit for days. And they don't have a clue when , or how much one will hit. But, for a time Las vegas was one state that had no minimum payout, in Mo. its 85 percent. But in vegas, if you advertize 97 percent, they have to pay that as a whole in that bank of slots. Now, sorry if I am wrong here, but somebody has got to manipulte them to make them payout that.If they didn't , and it was all random, when they didn't pay out 97 percent, they would be in trouble.Which is all that I have been saying, these sites have the ability to manipulate the rng, if they do or not is anyones opinion. But I am not gonna be an ass and tell everyone they don't know what they are talking about if they suspect something. You don't know if these sites rig shit anymore than anyone else. In a live game the cards are shuffled in front of us, and horrible beats happen, just read the wsop logs on Cardplayer. I just feel that the flops are juiced online to promote action. They would have a hard tome rigging anything, because even if they give me a winner everytime, nothing says I am gonna play those cards.

When reading posts on the subject of "commissions" and "regulations" and "certifications" as they apply to online poker sites, I can't help but be reminded of the glut of football handicapping magazines which hit the newstands about this time each pre-season. They all tout the "independent agencies" which monitor their advertisements for spectacular historical results in their pick percentages. The funny thing is, when you really start to dig around a bit, you find that these "monitors" are actually sitting across the hall in the same office in the same Vegas stripmall owned by the same greaseball publishers.

I totally agree that my lingering apprehensions about the legitimacy and 100% honesty of internet poker will not be completely put to rest until there is a universal gaming commission which puts its seal of approval on upright poker rooms. Everything out there right now is either completely provincial with serious limitations on its enforcement ability, or completely voluntary through contracted third-party companies. How loud can the whistle blow when it's being blown on the guys who're cutting your checks?

Alright ease up guys! We can very easily resectfully disagree! I agree that we are basically taking the site's word that everything is square. But you don't see me rippin 4 Dogs simply because we don't share the same opinion? Some people choose to believe and some choose to be skeptical. I am a skeptic by nature so until I see a Western Government step up and regulate online gaming I won't scream from the mountain tops that everything is legit. Now are the larger sites most likely on the up and up absolutely, but we won't know till someone with a sound rep starts keeping tabs on them. We can only hope that the UK steps up and embraces online gaming, well they already kinda have. Just need to be more proactive. Anyways keep it respectful

AMEN... I pray to the Great Elephant my thoughts exactly put down much more elequently than I could have

I hear all kinds of rumors about software that can help determione what cards are coming up, but if this was true there would be such turmoil. I really hope that nothing is actually true.

Actually the only software that is easily found is collusion software. It lets you see anybody's cards that are running that software not the entire tables.

Damn man. That software gets better every time I hear about it, LOL.

OH I so believe DAVE now! I am speechless about the hands tonight on Noble just plain speechless. I am sticking to our Paid tournies there. My faith in online poker being legit is seriously fading as of late! Too many "action" hands and 2 or even 1 outers falling. I must be in horrible nightmare somebody kick me in the so that I wake up! JJ in hole flop come J 3 10 CALL all in for 50 bucks turn comes ACE river comes 6 opponent turn over AA please when will this stop for me!!!!!!

Here is a sampling of 37,867 hands played at low limits on Paradise Poker. This sampling was taken by Tony Hwang and was posted on RGP newsgroup. The actual sampling contains much, much more information, however, the information below is a sample of the product in its entirety. The entire thread on RGP can be found here:
Http://www.playwinningpoker.com/rgp/02/
I suggest everyone go there and read the thread in its entirety and then make an educated judgement on the state of online poker as it pertains to the online cardrooms employing dishonest tactics in order to maximize profit or entice betting.

All suited cards dealt: 8982 (23.72%)
All suited cards expected: 8910 (23.5%)

All connected cards dealt: 5980 (15.79%)
All connected cards expected: 5940 (15.70%)

Suited connector starters dealt: 1486 (3.92%)
Suited connector starters expected: 1485 (3.92%)

Paired starters dealt: 2264 (5.979%)
Paired starters expected: 2227 (5.88%)

AKo dealt: 363 (0.959%)
AKo expected: 343 (0.905%)

AKs dealt: 98 (0.259%)
AKs expected: 114 (0.302%)

Any AK dealt: 461 (1.217%)
Any AK expected: 457 (1.21%)

Pocket Pairs
A's: 157 (0.415%)
K's: 140 (0.370%)
Q's: 184 (0.486%)
J's: 168 (0.444%)
T's: 183 (0.483%)
9's: 167 (0.441%)
8's: 185 (0.489%)
7's: 182 (0.481%)
6's: 192 (0.507%)
5's: 178 (0.470%)
4's: 186 (0.491%)
3's: 162 (0.428%)
2's: 180 (0.475%)
Each pair expected: 171 (0.452%)

Flop Analysis
Only data from hands where a flop was dealt is used in the following percentages.

Total hands dealt: 37867
Total times a flop was dealt: 35691 (94.25%)

When player dealt AK, flops at least one A or K: 154 (34.45%) Expected: 145 (32.4%)

Dealt any 2 suited cards: 8546 times
Using both hole cards the player flopped
3-Flush: 3593 (40.04%)
3-Flush: expected: 3554 (41.6%)
4-Flush: 922 (10.79%)
4-Flush Expected: 935 (10.9%)
Flush: 70 (0.82%)
Flush Expected: 72 (0.842%)

The 3 cards on the flop made:
3-Straight: 293 (3.43%)
3-Straight expected: 272 (3.18%)
2-Flush: 4698 (54.97%)
2-Flush expected: 4710 (55.1%)
3-Flush: 463 (5.42%)
3-Flush expected: 446 (5.22%)
Any Pair: 1470 (17.2%)
Any Pair expected: 1447 (16.9%)

Players Hand Flops
High card: 4453 (52.1%)
High card expected: 4497 (52.6%)
Pair: 3503 (41.0%)
Pair expected: 3453 (40.4%)
Two pair: 373 (4.36%)
Two pair expected: 345 (4.04%)
3 of a Kind: 107 (1.25%)
3 of a Kind expected: 134 (1.57%)
Straight: 32 (0.37%)
Straight Expected: 35 (0.412%)
Flush: 70 (0.82%)
Flush expected: 71 (0.835%)
Full House: 7 (0.082%)
Full House expected: 8 (0.0918%)
4 of a Kind: 1 (0.012%)
4 of a Kind expected: 1 (0.012%)
Straight Flush: 0
Straight Flush expected: 1 (0.00589%)
Royal Flush: 0
Royal Flush expected: 0

User has any pair (dealt 2196 times):
Using both hole cards flopped a:
Underpair (to flop): 523 (23.82%)
Underpair expected: 515 (23.5%)
Overpair (to flop): 496 (22.59%)
Overpair expected: 515 (23.5%)
Set: 238 (10.84%)
Set expected: 253 (11.51%)
Quads: 5 (0.228%)
Quads expected: 5 (0.228%)


As I stated, this is a small sampling of a huge amount of information gathered using poker tracking software.

Compare this real data with the few people that refuse to believe online poker isn't rigged and the ACTUAL statistical data will win out every time in the mind of a sensible player. People who use tracking software anylize and re anylize this information over and over to search their game for leaks and it is an utter impossibility that someone has never used raw data such as this to promote or prove that any site is doing anything wrong. On one hand you have real numbers, tangible evidence, and on the other you have conpiracy theorists jumping up and down claiming they saw too many "funny" hands. Which do you believe?

Yeah I know..... but if this bad run doesn't end soon I will get too discouraged to play anything above penny poker! I expect a bad session or 2 but the long shots are are falling back to back to back... TBH If I dealt well with losing I would probably be an even shittier player than I already am. BTW I am tracking my hands and when I get enough in Poker Tracker I will run the numbers to see. have 6000 stored in there now s onot enough to tell. PLUS the site I am trackin Party I think is legit so......